5 Carries Team?

Okay, okay. I know it sounds ridiculous and all, but before you land the *****torm to me (I assure you, go ahead, I can take it) please listen to my reasoning and idea (TEXT WALL INCOMING!!)

So, like the title suggests, I am wondering why is there not one time in pro team (or even pub) that the whole team consists of heroes that have carry or at least semi-carry in their roles. I know that it has been sort of baseline to have at least 2 supports in your team so that you can coordinate your farm and to babysit the carries. However, I've been witnessing in pro teams that these supports mostly cannot do anything in 30++ minutes mark in team fight and are usually down by 4-5 level from the rest (I'm talking about position 5). So, I came to this thinking: why can't we have a team that consists of 5 carries? This team will be absolutely unbeatable in late game even if enemy has full 6 slotted 2 carries that were overfed (or even fully 12-slotted Lone Druid).

I know the problem with 5 carries are that there would be no one to support / harass and babysit while in lane, however by 5 carries team I'm not talking like some sort of ridiculous 5 super late carry (it's a joke, and if any team does that, they deserve a place in LPQ). By 5 carries team, I am talking about a team that is balanced and know their own role, but can snowball very beautifully into late game.

This team is actually possible, considering there are many carry heroes that are quite ability dependent that can dish out ridiculous damage early game ( Juggernaut everyone?). So, I'm thinking like this: if we can create a full team of 5 carries that is balanced in their role, it is actually possible to counter the normal build-up. These are the role that I think we need in this 5 carries team:

Support --> Carry: This is the role where they start the game by buying wards and couriers (and don't forget those clarities). These heroes are early creep puller and harasser / ganker. This role is very important to have since this role have to take the part of many supports as a sole support in the team. Potentially speaking, the heroes that can take this role are heroes with great early damage nuke and has 2-3 active spells to actively harass enemies to protect their lane carry ( Tiny, Naga Siren, Chaos Knight, Invoker, etc.)

Early Carry --> Roamer/Pusher --> Carry: This is the role where the heroes have great early damage and preferably great mobility / pushing capability. Early game, this hero will pair up with the Support --> Carry hero role to net some early kills. Both him and the other hero will act as baby sitter for the mid-late carry, therefore, this role should focus on getting denies. This role is also very important, considering how carries need to snowball. This role have to roam to provide for the absent of supports. The heroes are heroes such as Bounty Hunter, Storm Spirit, Juggernaut, Gyrocopter, etc.

Tri-lane Mid-Late Carry: This is the role where the heroes need to cover the gap of effectivity of the Early Carry --> Roamer/Pusher --> Carry role in mid-late game. This hero have to be extremely strong with one or two core items, such as Ember Spirit with Desolator+ Daedalus/ Battle Fury or Clinkz with Orchid Malevolence. This role is the ones that need to take in farm in the tri-lane and help the roamer to roam once their core items are accomplished.

Solo Hard Lane Late Carry: This is the role where the heroes are strong late carries with dependable escape/durable capability that need to farm throughout the game. This is quite standard, so let's just skip to potential heroes ( Anti-Mage, Lone Druid, Dragon Knight, Faceless Void , Lifestealer, etc.)

Solo Mid Lane Late Carry: This is the role where you need to be late carry with capability to play in mid lane. Preferably, these heroes need to be heroes that are capable to flash-farm / crowd control if the game goes bad. These heroes need to have skills that deal AoE damage to creeps to turtle and defend at least until the carries (including himself) are strong enough to fight. Heroes that fit this role are heroes like Invoker with his Tornado--> EMP combo / Chaos Meteor, Dragon Knight with his Breathe Fire or Storm Spirit with Static Remnant--> Overload combo

Generally speaking, the gameplay need to be like this: Tri-Lane in safe lane need to be aggressive by having the Support and Roamer/Pusher role to continually harass enemy heroes or probably even get some kills. This allows the mid-late carry to farm in peace. Once the Roamer/Pusher has enough item and level (by the kills), they should make their presence felt throughout the map. This should be enough to make enemy heroes be more passive, and provide enough support for the carries in the team. When there are wards throughout the map and Roamer/Pusher are not that effective anymore, the Mid-Late Carry should be strong enough. This is the time when Mid-Late Carry should roam alongside the Roamer/Pusher and take kills and towers, giving free farm for the three other heroes. This should allow all the carries to snowball and nobody will be able to stop them in late game.

Imagine this situation: The drafting is Anti Mage as solo hard lane carry, Gyrocopter as support --> carry, Chaos Knight as roamer/pusher --> carry, Medusa as mid lane carry and Clinkz as mid-late carry. Imagine the horror in early game when Reality Rift hits in, Chaos Bolt stuns you then you are targeted by Homing Missile while taking damage from Rocket Barrage. As the game moves to Mid-Game, what would you do when suddenly you are silenced by Orchid Malevolence of Clinkz while you are being hit by Medusa/ Anti-Mage? What about trying to gank Medusa and Clinkz with 4 person, but got hit by global range Call Down, and slowed by Stone Gaze and giving Medusa an ultra kill instead? And just.... let's not mention late game Anti-Mage + Medusa

Theoretically, this kind of team can work well throughout the game, and practically unbeatable the more time that pass. What do you guys think? It seems like this team can work well enough and I think it might be worth a shot to try. It's gonna be a lot of fun when the other team is like "WTF just happened? Did we really lose to 5 team carries?" after they mock your team draft

Simple answer. Late game: carries are not better then other heroes. You need initiation and counterinitiation.

**** i wish we had batrider/centaur/clockwerk.
**** i wish we had dazzle/AA/sand king.


Imagine your lineup. Where is the initiation? Where is the pickoff potential?

Anti mage is going to have a 25 minute battle fury in the offlane and as a result be beatable in lane, medusa is going to lose mid, clinkz is going to farm and when he ganks wishes he had an offlaner and mid that actually offer what those positions should.
Chaos knight and gyro are going to support and never transition into (semi) carries becouse there isnt enough farm to be found on the map, espacially becouse the opponent only allows you to farm the creeps who approach your exposes tier 3 towers.
So now you are stuck with 2 very mediocre supports while you could have picked better ones.

This 'strategy' can be completely destroyed a dragon kight alone becouse he will take all your outer towers in 15 minutes.

Ok maybe if the opponent allows that team to farm for +80 minutes they might win.


Yes there are some heroes that can be picked as both support and carry such as naga siren and alchemist.
But they will never transition into carries becouse naga wants (here come the magic word) utility items like mekanism/vlads/force staff/halberd. And alchemist's carry potential is completely based around him outfarming everyone. And this game we would also like items like blink/medallion.


If you want a good team that is still great lategame get heroes like batrider/centaur/clockwerk. AA/dazzle/abbadon/and many more.

Thanks Tim for the feedback!

Talking about initiation and counter initiation, even in this draft there are Medusa and Gyrocopter. Both of these heroes' ulti ( Call Down and Stone Gaze) works really well as counter initiation, and sometimes as initiation skills. Not to mention the Split Shot and Flak Cannon in team fight. Also, this is just for this draft. Let's not forget other heroes like Faceless Void ( Chronosphere is one of the best counter initiation skill, or Magnus with his Reverse Polarity (yes, he is carry, just check).

I don't see why Medusa will lose in her lane, Mystic Snake is very powerful for mid lane since mostly enemy depends on having mana to spam skills and Mana Shield makes her pretty durable, making nuke ineffective. Pit her with Dragon Knight, she will leave him crying for having constant 0 MP and range disadvantage. Even if he gets Soul Ring or Bottle, Mana Shield will render Breathe Fire ineffective.

Now, even if the highlight of this team is of course the 5 carries, but the most importantly noted heroes of the team would be the two roamers ( Clinkz and Chaos Knight). Once Chaos Knight starts to move around the map, Medusa will be able to kill her lane enemy with 2v1 situation, while Anti-Mage should be able to dish out quick damage and great burst with Mana Void once Chaos Knight initiate the gank. When Clinkz have Orchid Malevolence, he will also rotate around the map alongside Chaos Knight. This will leave the three lanes for the team to farm. With two roamers, it is highly unlikely for enemies to win the gank. These two roamers will also stop enemies to play aggressively, letting the three carries for free farm (and if they do play aggresively, get both of them to kill the heroes.) Not to mention, both of them are GREAT pusher, so if they manage to kill a lane heroes they can potentially bag tower quickly with the other hero of original lane.

I know that this drafting is not the best, I'm just trying to prove my point about the team. Each of these heroes are just heroes that pop into my mind according to each of the roles. I know this concept can be brought farther if we just think deeper and be more creative. Oh, by the way, Abaddon IS semi-carry so, he can be put into one of the draft as well as Batrider.

Yeah this just won't work for a variety of reasons (it happens more than you think in pubs):

1) Carries are farm and level dependent...there is only so much of each to go around, somebody has to miss out, or everyone ends up very average. Good supports can get by without either - they're the reason carries work. Imagine having 5 carries on the team - where will everyone farm? What if the lanes aren't safe? Will your jungle be picked to the bone and your ancients unstacked? Everyone ends up going short, nobody gets enough.

2) You're very vulnerable to early game strats like pushes and heavy ganks. Hard carries like AM and Medusa are pretty useless early game and will just be passengers on the road to Loseville.

3) If your "support" carries try to go their usual builds they'll be short of farm, and it leaves you with no utility items Mekansm, etc that the team needs. If they don't go their usual builds...what's the point of taking them?

4) Concentration of farm matters. Often it's much, much better to have a lot of farm concentrated on 1-2 heroes, rather than spread over more. These seriously fed carries can easily beat multiple opponents because of the stacking effect of their farm. The game has to go seriously late to counterbalance this.

5) Stuns, slow and teamfight. You've got one proper stun in Chaos Bolt and an unreliable one in Homing Missile, both on non-intelligence heroes who don't have the mana pool to use them much. No slows, no silences, and a little bit of teamfight from dusa and Gyro. Better balanced teams would mash you.

So it can't work, eh? Too bad, this idea just came to me, and the more I think about it the more I think it's possible. I know how a team and supposed to be and how it makes most teams look similar. So i thought that having this kind of idea can make dota more lively, but it just won't work, it seems.

I really think it can still work actually, if we just think deeper into which hero to pick. I mean, the possible draft is HUGE. Lina is great with Fiery Soul to become a carry late game, Batrider and Silencer can be great team fighters (as well as Queen of Pain and Death Prophet), Abaddon as strong durable and semi-carry with Curse of Avernus, Slardar and Magnus can both be great initiator, Lycanthrope can be great Vladmir's Offering holder and Meepo/ Invoker can also be great Mekansm holder even in their usual build. I mean, these are just heroes that pop on top of my head with their role in the team, I believe there are much more possibilities that can make this idea works.

So, what do you guys think? I mean, before Smoke of Deceit the chinese teams usually go with 3 carries team. Do you think this idea worth developing?

There are almost no heroes that dragon knight loses to, he might not win his lane but he almost always gets even.
He is also a better mid then medusa. More durable early. Better lasthitting. Provides more if his team ganks mid. Harder to gank.
And once he hits 6 medusa is screwed and he is going to destroy their tower if medusa doesnt get help.

Running anti mage offlane makes no sense, he doesnt provide anything and isnt going to see creeps at all. It just as bad as running him as a support.

You now have 3 heroes who cant fight early becouse 2 want multiple major item and 1 wants atleast 2.


Considering abbadon as a semi-carry is cheating, he is mainly a support. Then you might as well consider earthshaker a carry.

I also dont consider magnus a carry in the same way i dont consider puck a carry.
Just becouse a hero is one of your 3 cores doesnt mean he is a carry.

The strategy of running 5 carries just to get better lategame is not viable.
You can run a support combo that consists of heroes who can also (semi) carry. Like naga alchemist.

That is a legit support combo in some situations but even that is not ideal becouse they are both melee. So a strong agressive trilane will also screw that strategy over.


Edit: just saw the above post.
You are thinking about this wrong, running carries like slardar or sven as a support doesnt make them better then late game supports past 30 minutes. For example abbadon is good in lategame becouse of his shield dispelling negative buffs, not becouse he attacks a little bit faster with curse of avernus.

So in a nutshell, late game utility like ice blast/shallow grave exetera> a little bit of extra phisical damage from god's strength/phantasm.

Yeah, I understand what you mean Tim, and I have known that this draft will not work. Thank you for so kindly explaining it to me. However, my point is not that drafting, but the concept in itself. I know how we don't consider Magnus or Queen Of Pain or Puck as carries, but they are listed as carry in their role, as well as Abaddon, Lina and Batrider as semi-carry. Do you think I should give up on this concept entirely, or making better and more balanced team line up?

I would abandon it. The Meta has shifted away from games that go Late enough to give a Position 5 enough Farm for Damage Items. Sando's pretty much summed it up, even if you can get around points #1, #2 and #5, 3 and 4 wil cause this start to fail evry time...

You need Heroes that can go with less Farm so that you have stronger Cores, having 1 or 2 strong Cores is better than having 5 Cores sharing the same Farm.

Also...

Ignore these labels.

Just because they're listed as such, doesn't make them viable in those Roles. I know we can debate over and update the Roles on this site, but ultimately the labels end up becoming inaccurate with every shift in the Meta. I'm sure Magnus used to be played as a Carry, but would you play him as a Position 1, when he achieves just as much, if not more, as a Position 2?

Yes the valve roles and builds should be ignored. It seems at that from abbadon they gave up giving them their proper roles.

For example gyro isnt classified as a carry and has a ****ty shadow blade aghanim build.

My theory behind the earth spirit roles is that they copied ember's roles, carry nuker.

So if we are talking about "the meta" then no this idea is not a viable option. HOWEVER, if we are talking strictly about pubs, I think it has a decent chance of working, but not too much more so than other strats. My reason is that in a lot of pubs, I think the team that plays/communicates better wins. So if you are against a more unorganized group that can't quite close out the game, this strat would definitely give you a second chance, even if you lost early game. If you communicate a lot and turtle successfully, it would be a no brainer late game. maybe put a Bristleback solo with Medusa farming ancients (harder to do on dire), Dk mid, and Drow Ranger/ Sniper/ Clinkz bottom with a support Naga Siren, if you communicate well it could work out.