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Xyrus's #RoadTo4k Thread

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Forum » General Discussion » Xyrus's #RoadTo4k Thread 122 posts - page 4 of 13
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Dimonychan » January 4, 2016 4:02am | Report
Nobody says about meta heroes, just heroes you are good with. Hamster is exaggerating like he always does, ofc he didn't mean that 6k are 6k because they spammed certain heroes, more precisely, not JUST because of that. I've seen a lot 6.84 Lesh and BS and a lot 6.85 Wind spammers who sucked and there is a guy with 8k Slark games who is still in lower 4ks at best.

But if you are really good and you want to raise your MMR, spamming heroes from a select pool is the best way. This "play a lot of heroes and be versatile" mantra is absolute ********, there are few players who really achieved something decent that way and they have really played a lot and had titanic nerves.

95% of players above 5k have a pool of ~10 heroes they pick often and they use to up MMR, the rest is situational and picked rarely.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Hamstertamer » January 4, 2016 4:05am | Report
Well everyone is free to think whatever he wants, no point arguing I guess. I just think seeing the dotabuff of any high rated player who spam picks 3-4 meta heroes maximum in every patch is proof enough that picks are super important (when it's not just *one* hero, just look at Earth spirit pickers with 2000 games of that hero). But believe what you want, if you don't want to believe that some heroes are far better than others especially in solo queue ranked, and that Xyrus needs to take this into account to build a hero pool, then no point convincing you it's your life not mine.

And when did I say that you can get to 5K MMR only by picking good heroes, or that skill doens't matter? "Every high rated player spams meta heroes" is what I said, and it means that it's necessary to spam meta heroes, not that it's sufficient.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by ChiChi » January 4, 2016 4:22am | Report
Dimonychan wrote:

But if you are really good and you want to raise your MMR, spamming heroes from a select pool is the best way. This "play a lot of heroes and be versatile" mantra is absolute ********, there are few players who really achieved something decent that way and they have really played a lot and had titanic nerves.


I agree with this, and I think Tim does as well. To get better you actually have to play a lot with selected heroes, and if you want to also grind mmr you probably should choose a hero that you are already at least comfortable with, and improve on that. Regardless of them being or not meta heroes, and more importantly: you're not gonna grind mmr by playing 1v9. It simply doesn't work like that, since mmr is based on wins, and to win you need your team. There's no way around it. The way people have been talking here though, makes it seem like indeed you should just pick one of the 10 most succefful meta heroes and that will insta grant you mmr - regardless of you actually getting better or not.

Personally Xyrus, I'm also at 2k (at least officially and in team mmr, since I don't have solo mmr) and I don't see the stuff you talk about, such as non-existant trilanes or supports that steal your last hits - not often, at least. And as a support player I can tell you I've made the difference more by playing support than some cores; I think Sando said something similar once as well. If you do want to get better with cores, that's ok, just don't do it convinced that's gonna mean ez mmr or is the only way to get it, it isn't.

Now off to Phantom Assassin specially: not that she isn't on the current meta, not that Silver Edge is OP because I think that's ******** as you all know, but frankly, still a very high cap hero that needs the team much more than you think to succeed. Same goes for Alchemist. I noticed you actually also have a high number of games with Crystal Maiden and a nice winrate with her. Do you know why I started spamming her a year ago? And this sounds funny, but because she doesn't depend on her team as much. Not to win, because ofc she depends for that, but to be usefull, to actually do stuff. You don't need farm, and even if you are underleved you still have a "stun" and a slow, which are always usefull. The cores you chose, on the other hand, need space to farm and/or initiation to get into fight without being blown up in the first seconds, so they actually depend on their teams much more.

I also agree with what some people wrote here about Juggernaut: you dismissed him as being easily shut down when I sincerily think he is one of the best heroes to play in 2k now, hard to kill in lane and farms easily, then can just split push/look for ganks/farm more. And he also needs less protection from his team to do this, because he has better ways to deal with ganks and pressure in lane then PA has.

So you see, maybe you can (and should) improve even on just this first phase, when picking heroes to train with and to get better. I dream with the day I will be an amazing Legion Commander and kill everything that moves, but I know I'm parsecs away from that and specially I need good opportunities and a patient team to train with if I ever want to get there - so if I'm playing ranked, as I'm actually playing a bit now, I stick to CM and others like her, regardless of meta, because I know I don't suck completely and I can actually make a difference :)

Edit: Getting better, in general, is a complex mix of knowing a hero deeply but also knowing game mechanics in general, and being wise and strategic and flexible in-game. Ofc there's also no point in being an amazing Pudge if you ignore how much of an impact the hero can cause or how he should be behaving throughout the game regarding his team. Sometimes these things are only visible if you do the "not auto pilot" thing that Smuggels spoke about, and the actually watching replays or at least thinking of them that Tim mentioned. So I should say you should concentrate on these - and I would love to help you with the Alch game but I suck at Alch, so I leave that to someone more qualified.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by asterkm » January 4, 2016 4:22am | Report
Might sound stupid, but I still think matchmaking is broken. You should be matched with players of similar knowledge of game and considering rank, level, wins...whatever. This 'similar knowledge' is very important part of game.
So, if we talk about playing different characters, it must depend of roles you like and play, it is not same to play your heros all pick, and to play captains mode, not to mention ranked games in all pick and captains mode, and it all comes down to same ranking levels. So if you play role, so to speak mid or offlane, you must know most or every hero that plays that position, or at least enough number to not be always outbanned or something...
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Timminatorr » January 4, 2016 4:37am | Report
What im seeing is just that everyone is just advising hin to cheat almost a 1000 mmr with purely picks. Sure you can get the best results with heroes you are actually good with including meta heroes, but how much MMR can you go above your actual skill level with them?
What amazes me is that the word improvement wasnt used, the thing that happened is a discussion on what 'OP' heroes best to spam. And sure other heroes are better then others but were also talking about playing in 2K here.... And many MMR points still have to get past 3k.....

And hamster there is a thing as making things seem easy.
Sure we all see highlights of bulldog crushing his way through mid 4K average games on his smurf and you see people make mistakes that make you think HAH WHAT AN IDIOT, but the truth is pretty much everyone on dotafire would all make the same stupid mistakes.

Saying high MMR players advice is useless and saying they are higher then they should be is dumb and arrogant, besides you are advising xyrus to do exactly the same.

So why isnt anyone giving actual advice on how to do better and improve. Take your team on your back, not by carrying but by taking advantages, learning how to spot them, advising to look at his games to see his mistakes, or ask someone else cause someone else his point of view can be usefull even if the player is at the same level.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by UltraSuperHyper » January 4, 2016 4:54am | Report
Guys, let's not change this thread to a "How To Get Better" thread. Let's just advice him and he'll do what he thinks is right. Obviously different people would have different opinions about how he should reach 4k. Let's not lunge at each other just because someone thinks differently than us!

Also, spam heroes which you are really comfortable with. I mean like you already play at a 4k level with those heroes. That'll get you there. Eventually.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Hamstertamer » January 4, 2016 5:06am | Report
Timminatorr wrote:

Sure we all see highlights of bulldog crushing his way through mid 4K average games on his smurf and you see people make mistakes that make you think HAH WHAT AN IDIOT, but the truth is pretty much everyone on dotafire would all make the same stupid mistakes.


Actually I was talking about Bulldog reaching 7K MMR on his *main* account by spamming pretty much 4 heroes : Doom in 6.85, and Weaver/LD/Furion in 6.86.

Timminatorr wrote:

Saying high MMR players advice is useless and saying they are higher then they should be is dumb and arrogant, besides you are advising xyrus to do exactly the same.


I can only speak from personal experience, but as far as I'm concerned, this was pretty much true. I hardly ever learnt anything useful about dota by asking / listening to advice in the "analyze my replays" style. Everything I ever learnt about dota was by watching high rated players *actually play* the game, in replays, streams and competitive games.

"Higher than they should be"? When did I ever say that?

I'm not encouraging Xyrus to do the same, just speaking my own mind.

Timminatorr wrote:

What im seeing is just that everyone is just advising hin to cheat almost a 1000 mmr with purely picks. Sure you can get the best results with heroes you are actually good with including meta heroes, but how much MMR can you go above your actual skill level with them?
What amazes me is that the word improvement wasnt used, the thing that happened is a discussion on what 'OP' heroes best to spam.


What you don't understand is that hero picks are a core part of dota. Picking the right hero is actually a part of "skill" and "improvement". That's just how the game works right now. And that's why everyone is discussing this. Even Xyrus himself, because the subject of this thread is his hero pool.

If picking good heroes is cheating, then every high rated player is a cheater.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Dimonychan » January 4, 2016 5:08am | Report
Cheat almost 1000 mmr? Excuse me, but how is that even cheating in the first place? The only ways of cheating MMR I know so far are sandbox abusing(there is a solid evidence w33 did that btw) and server crashing(qSnake was doing that if I'm not mistaken). Of course, MMR boosts and account purchases too. Then there are scripts and macros which are arguably cheating(I think so, but a lot of people don't). And that's about it.

Spamming meta heroes is not cheating, the game allows you to do that and actually encourages you to do that. A lot of people are picking patch cancer just so their enemies don't. A lot of people pick specific meta heroes because those are almost exclusively the only heroes that can survive in this meta. I bet there are a lot of players who would be happy to play different heroes for change but they just don't work nearly as well.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Sando » January 4, 2016 9:57am | Report
I think the point here is the difference between skill and MMR. They are not the same thing. It's really about whether Xyrus's mission here is to get the MMR number next to his name, to be a better player, or both.

It comes back to the old arguments about how much MMR actually reflects how good you are. Can a single number really emcompass everything about you as a player?

Luck eventually evens out in terms of bad team mates on your side / opposition, so you could compare gaining MMR to poker in some ways. You get good hands and bad ones, and the best players will make as many work for them as they can.

It's also the same old argument about whether playing a support role on a team of cores gives you the edge over the opposition (even one player doing the right thing and forgoing farm can help a lot), or whether you're best off sitting mid and running the show if you are a better player than the others. (many people like to think so, occasionally it's true). How many games will you lose having to solo support idiots, compared to how many will you lose because you end up dual mid with some moron?

Personally, I think "meta" heroes are overrated for 90% of the actual player pool (give me a high skill player on a non-meta hero over a weaker one on a meta hero almost any day), simply put, many people aren't good enough to properly emulate the pro's and leave a lot of room to the skill ceiling.

However, it's true from patch to patch that some heroes are stronger, more flexible or easier to play well than others. It will always be the case in a game as inheritantly hard to balance as dota.

Master of 5 heroes or jack of 50...it's hard to say which makes you better. 5 heroes you know inside out is handy. Knowing the relative playstyle, strengths and weaknesses of 50 is very useful too.

Personally I think I random or single draft almost every game these days, so you know which side of the fence I am. Doesn't mean it's the best way of gaining MMR thou.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Blubbles » January 4, 2016 12:47pm | Report
Maybe we can move this debate over to another thread because I think this one should stick to Xyrus's Hero Pool instead of How to raise MMR
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