Underused Items - Veil of Discord

In my adventures around pub-land, this is a very rarely seen item, despite recent buffs and regardless of just how effective it can be in some situations.

There's lots of things I like about the Veil:

+ You get a lot of strong stats of all kinds

+ It's cheap at 2270-2320 gold (depending on whether you believe dota2wiki or dotafire)

+ It generally increases the magic damage you can put out by about 19%

+ It works for your team too

Ok so those stats - a very respectable 6 strength (144HP), 6 (7* with the agi bonus) armour and 6 hp regen, ideal for squishy casters who tend to lack armour. It follows up with a whopping 18 intelligence - extra right click for int heroes, but also 0.72 per second base regen, and 234 mana points.

That base regen might not sound like much, but it's effected by all those cheap mana regen boosters like Sage's Mask, which tend to weigh in at 50-100% each.

Basically this is a pretty catch all stats item for roles #3 to #5 - it gives you a lot of what you need for a small price, and can be built up pretty easily through the Null Talisman into the Helm and then the Robes.

When you use the active, which has a very large radius, all enemy/neutral units in the area have their magic resistance reduced by 25%. That leaves most heroes on 6.25%, and most heroes don't increase their resistance at all throughout the game.

The most obvious use of this is team fights - every nuke your team throws now does about 19% more damage, worth about 60 extra damage per target to max Dragon Slave, or 130 extra damage for max Laguna Blade. Compare with 25 and 60 for Aether Lens.

The real fun begins with big AOE spells - max Epicenter gains about 200 damage per target - 1000 extra damage overall if you're hitting 5 targets. Zeus weighs in at 565 damage for max Thundergod's Wrath (no aghs), and it increases max Static Field from 11% to 13% of current health every time you cast a spell.

And the best thing? It works for YOUR TEAM TOO. So if you're a bunch of nuke heavy midgame rollers - say you've got a Zeus, a Lich and a Luna - ALL of their ults are now nearly 20% more effective!

Ok, you've sold me Sando, what's the downside?

That's the thing...I don't think there particularly is one.

You can make an argument that Aether Lens is a better choice if you're a solo caster, considering the extra range. You can talk about Black King Bar completely countering it - well yes, but you picked a nuker anyway, didn't you?

It's not an item that particularly drops off. It obviously peaks with maximum magic damage output compared to health (i.e. midgame), but even in the late game, once those BKB timers start wearing down, it will continue to maximise your magic damage, even let you farm a bit faster if you use nukes to flashfarm.

The real counter argument here is simply that your team doesn't benefit enough from it - you won't necessarily pick one up just for yourself (although in some cases, it's still worth it), or simply that you need other items more. Maybe that Glimmer Cape, Blink Dagger or Ghost Scepter.

Obviously you'll almost never pick it up on a carry - it's a support/semi-carry item. The most "carry" heroes you're ever likely to pick it up on are maybe Zeus, Lina or Necrophos.

However - there are a lot of carries you can assist by getting it - Outworld Devourer, Luna, Thor-Build Drow Ranger, Invoker, Leshrac, Shadow Fiend and Tiny come to mind.

Of course...you have to remember to use it, but it's got 16s duration on a 20s CD for 50 mana. It's 3 clicks guys :). Even on a more complex initation like Sand King, throw it in straight after your blink, otherwise just dump it on the largest concentration of heroes you can find at the start of the fight or gank.

Fixed, it's 2270. :D

Thanks!

My the service is good round here :)

I see it as a Drum of Endurance for spell damage cores. Similar to how str/agi cores pick up Drum for early game stats and early fighting, Veil is kinda similar for magic damage cores.

I agree that it has been traditionally underused, but that could be because magic damage cores have not been that popular in the past. It's definitely seeing more play competitively these days, with cores like Zeus and Jakiro seeing more play.

The thing with Veil though is that, it's probably a little too expensive for a support to get one, more so since the build up isn't something that favors supports (as opposed to a Drum which builds from a bracer that supports can get early for extra hp). This leaves the cores having to pick the item, but unless the core is directly synergistic with the item, there are often better choices in terms of utility that they pick up (Shivas/Force staff/Euls,etc).

Of the current meta heroes, only Zeus could probably make good use of the item. Maybe get a Veil after the aether lens before the blink or octarine.

I rarely pick up this item on Sand King, mainly because the change to Sand King's laning made him more of a Pos 3 lane dominating hero akin to Axe, except with good rotation ability. Because of this, I tend to pick up survival on my SK, often in the form of Linken's Sphere, Aghs, or Octarine, since it lets you cast more burrowstrikes. In terms of the nuking path, I prefer to get Dagon and Eblade, since disposing someone from the fight early on I find is usually more effective than hitting everyone for a little bit more damage, though if I'm in a low position or we're losing and I'm desperate for damage, I will pick up the Veil. My friend has a similar logic when it comes to Earth Spirit, putting the Dagon over the Veil.

However, on Zeus, Jakiro, Venomancer, and Disruptor, this item is fantastic and usually worth picking up, the stats are more valuable to them, and the active is nice because they do everything in one burst, pretty much no matter what, except Zeus (who wants it for his passive), who is an exception because of his wickedly high magic damage.

Also, what about Huskar? There was Lumi/EDJE's Veil/Dagon/Eblade Huskar build. The item did get buffed, so that build has an easier time being even more active with that Dagon mana cost. Then again, no one will take it seriously no matter how successful it is.

Some good points - it can be a tough choice on cores, although my Zeus build tends to be Bottle, boots, Force Staff into Veil and then whatever. It's a pretty serious farming as well as fighting item - and the mana/int gain is enough that you don't need Arcane Boots beforehand.

Huskar is a good case - that hero has so much magic damage, and the armour is super-useful. I tend to go Mid - Veil into Armlet into Aghs. Some people will moan, but they tend to stop moaning when you've got a high KDA, but it does depend on the rest of your line up benefiting from it too. 77% of their HP gone on a 4 second CD? OP, OSfrog etc.

Generally though, I'm picking it up on supports and #3's. SK is a prime example - Boots, Blink into Veil. Solves most of your mana problems, as well as making you seriously tough, and does a whole lot for your ulti.

Lich is a classic case - I tend to go Boots into Urn into Veil on both him and Jakiro. It's not actually that difficult, with only the Helm being 900g as the most expensive component. Big tanky dragon is much more tanky with extra armour - 10 armour is about a 30% physical damage reduction compared to 2. Check out this game for an example. (I was ward ***** btw)

For me, Disruptor's aghs is too good to pass up, so you miss the timing window for this item. Same with AA.

Seriously guys, give it a try. Get it as your first major item if your team has decent magic output.

The item is getting built a lot more because if people haven't noticed; Look at the stats it gives you. Any team with a decent amount of magical damage can justify it now on a support because of that. Not just these line ups with like 3/5 magical burst heroes.

The item has been bought thrice as often in professional games this patch compared to 6.85 in only 2/3's of the number of total games. Which isn't great, but it's a step in the right direction. Since stuff like this trickles down from the professional scene to pubs.

I love this item.

I find it's really good on the Merlini Huskar (Agh's Veil Dagon), but I haven't picked it up since Huskar got nerfed.

Puck: my favourite hero with my second favourite item (favourite being Blink). It's sooo good, especially after the change. Useful if you don't need Eul's for the purge.

Jakiro: Good after Euls and Aether lens.

SK: for obvious reasons, after blink and agh's.

Zeus: I picked it up a lot before Aether Lens was introduced, but now I go for Aether Lens instead. If the game calls for it I will pick it up.

My latest games as Zeus I've been going Aether Lens directly into Veil of Discord. It's ridiculously worth it on that hero, in my opinion: tanks him up, gives him sustain and a healthy mana pool to boot, and the damage. Good god, man.

On paper, it's a great item, but I find myself regretting buying it whenever I do, with the exception of Sand King, Lion, and Earth Spirit. Whenever I buy it on Zeus, I wish I bought a Force Staff or an Aether Lens, or even just saved for Octarine Core. Whenever I buy it on Lich, I wish I bought an Aghanim's Scepter. Whenever I buy it on a Jakiero, I wish I bought a Eul's Scepter of Divinity or Mekansm.

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It's insane on Lion. I just did the math, and here it is for just the amplification on Finger of Death, Veil of Discord vs. Aghanim's Scepter.

Nothing:
850 * .75 (25% base hero magic resistance) = 637.5 dmg

637.5 - 637.5 = 0
Damage added after reductions - 0

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Veil:
850 * 1.25 (25% veil magic amp) = 1062.5 dmg

1062.5 * .75 (25% base hero magic resistance) = 796.875 dmg

796.875 - 637.5 = 159.375
Damage added after reductions - 159.375

cost- 2270

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Agh's
1025 (Agh's finger damage) * .75 (25% base hero magic resistance) = 786.75 dmg

786.75 - 637.5 = 149.25
Damage added after reductions - 149.25

Cost- 4200

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Cost efficiency

Veil: about 14.24 Gold/Dmg

One Veil of Discord grants a total of 114 health, 6.18 health regeneration, 6.84 armor, 6 attack speed, 234 mana, 0.72 mana regeneration and 12 (24 to intelligence heroes) attack damage. Costs 50 mana to cast.



Agh's: about 28.14 Gold/Dmg

One Aghanim's Scepter grants a total of 390 health, 0.3 health regeneration, 1.4 armor, 10 attack speed, 280 mana, 0.4 mana regeneration and 10 attack damage. Makes Finger of Death 25 mana cheaper.



Veil is almost 2x as cost efficient as Agh's for Finger of Death. Agh's is better for max HP and max Mana, Veil is better for HP and Mana Regen, Armor and Damage. Of course, you should buy both. After Blink Dagger, of course.