DotA 2 Smalltalk

Surely you jest. Lets settle it at a stalemate where neither he or I were convincing enough to turn either of our opinions. My only annoyance with muself is that i couldn't get him to try it.

I think no one tried it on troll. Thats just plain sorrow for me.

I've been trying to convince Hamster that Silver Edge isn't OP since like three patches ago. Good luck Kyp xD

A +Rep to someone that convinces him that Scythe of Vyse is not the new Abyssal Blade (you tried Cuttle, but you were royally ignored ahah)

But Silver Edge is pretty op. you cut down 40% of their damage, and break all their passives for 4 seconds, and bkb doesn't disspell the break. Granted, 4 seconds is not a long time, but on the right heroes (**** you Lifestealer), it just let's you hit something while they can't fight back for 4 seconds.

The only reason i don't find it op is because supports keep getting buffed, and teamfight teams are so ******* common now.

You said it yourself. It's like everything else in Dota: if you want to take the easy road, you say something is OP because it's powerfull on its own, wether it's a hero or an item. But you're smarter than that, you know this game is made by the assemblege of every single little thing, like drops in an imense ocean. It's legit to cry that something is OP, but only if that results from a series of different aspects, like being uncountered, too flexible and strong all at the same time, both in pubs and competitive, etc. And right now nothing really feels OP, tbh. I saw Epicenter and it was again one hell of a tournaments, dota games keep getting better and better and more diversified.

Aaand it's pretty funny to play Bristleback and beat this Viper with Silver Edge to death while screaming OH NO LE UNBALANCED PURPLE BLADE WHATEVER AM I GONNA DO (#truestory: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2244509294)

Essentially the problem I have is very simple :

- Abyssal is a Vanguard worth of stats plus HP regen plus an active
- Sheep is an Ultimate Orb worth of stats plus mana regen plus an active

Before, abyssal was a Sacred Relic worth of stats plus an active. So this made abyssal a better item on melee carries than sheep, because carries want damage. Abyssal was awesome stats plus an active, sheep was mediocre stats plus an active.

I always thought the sheep active was far better than the abyssal active. It's almost twice the duration, and 800 cast range! And a lower cooldown. Piercing BKB isn't worth giving up on all that, especially when you don't have a way to jump BKB'd targets.

Like, would you rather have a 7 second 2000 cast range stun that doesn't pierce BKB, or would you rather have Primal Roar?
"piercing BKB" is simply not worth "10 times as good".

But now the abyssal stats are actually *worse* than the sheep stats. Because Ultimate Orb is a good item, Vanguard, not really.

So it all comes down to
* Is the abyssal active ever better than the sheep active? Honestly, for me, that's a massive no. BKB piercing isn't worth the halved duration and melee cast range.
* Is HP regen better on your hero than mana regen? If you have a hero with no mana issues whatsoever but who absolutely needs HP regen, it might be an argument.




I covered it in my previous post. Essentially Crimson Guard is a much better buildup from Vanguard than abyssal, considering how that hero works.




You can use items during Omnislash, so I don't see how he doesn't benefit from scythe during ult. Actually, he can't use abyssal during ult because melee cast range, while he can use 800 cast range sheep easily when omnislashing.

On Jugger, both abyssal and sheep only have their place as late game items. Since neither item gives good stats, it comes down to which active is better.

Jugger gets mana regen from bfury...well first if he gets one, and HP regen is wasted on the hero anyways becaus ehe has ward. So it's more like Jugger doesn't need regen.

ALso, scythe has 800 cast range. It's perfectly viable initiation without a blink by using the fog to initiate.

Again, you lost 60 damage on abyssal, and got a Vanguard instead. Sure it's still viable on carries?




Okay, mayyybe, and that's just because Centaur really benefits from HP regen and doesn't especially need mana regen.
I'd still much rather have the sheep active, but the abyssal regen at least has good synergy with him.

Still, it's not an aghs, blademail, forcestaff, pipe or halberd, so there are better midgame options on Centaur.

And sheep is always better in the late game
...because anything that builds from Vanguard can't decently be called a late game item.

Centaur is probably the least bad of the list though, I admit.




Ummm...no. He doesn't. Vanguard NS is not and has never been a thing.
Just because Volvo has premade item builds on heroes doesn't mean they're not completely garbage.
Just compare rushing Vanguard on NS and rushing this item



On one hand, you have 65 damage, 25 attack speed, 9 armor, and tons of effective HP from armlet toggling.
On the other hand, you have 250 HP and a bit of damage block.

Basher NS is good because it cancels TP scrolls, but Vanguard NS is literally horrible scrub tier -_-




And how exactly do you snowball with a 6K gold item that deals zero damage?




Well it used to be great on Alchemist, but is it still?

Again, you lost 60 damage and gained a Vanguard.

Abyssal is just the bash and the active now. Alch is already slot-starved as hell. Won't you rather have a skadi, a MKB or something?

Also, the sheep active is awesome on Alch, since he can initiate with sheep and follow-up with stun. The abyssal active is just weak to getting kited.

Alch used to by abyssal because it was an expensive late game item. But its no longer a late game item now, is it?




Doesn't do much except Force Staff away and trap the BKB'd carry in his cogs? Clock is one of the best counters to BKB in the game...
Now he can even Blade Mail.



In the early game, vanguard makes you tankier. Thing is, in the early game Clock buys blademail, forcestaff and aghs. Not vanguard.

In the late game vanguard doesn't make you tankier in any way.



Well he has a way to land the abyssal active, that's for sure. But the sheep active is still better.

Clock can buy *both* abyssal and sheep. But if I have to choose, I'd take the sheep anyday.



If you're playing CK against Sven, rat dota is pretty much the only way you can win. That and sick illusion micro with control groups.

If you buy abyssal against Sven, how do you land it on the BKB'd Sven? Reality Rift doesn't go through BKB. You can't walk up to him or you get 3-shotted.

So how is it relevant to have a BKB-piercing stun over a sheep?

Also, Ultimate Orb gives stats to CK illusions. Vanguard doesn't.




Corrected the numbers, cause it's worse than you think.

You forgot the +15 to all stats. It's as much stats as a linkens.

Also, silver edge is good in teamfights as well. Strap it on a ranged hero, you have a 600 range active.

Silver is not a ganking item. It's a hate item against heroes with passives. Exactly the same way Heaven's Halberd is a hate item against ranged carries. It's a hard counter to heroes like PA or BB that were already underpowered as hell.

Depending on the hero and the game played, you will see that 80% of people prefer to have the Primal Roar. Because the whole "I'm jumping you from a distance always so you don't get to use that BKB" happens mainly to pub suckers with no map vision. Games nowadays are filled with teamfights of 5v5, where having a BKB piercing disable is much more important most of the times. Why do you think even the cooldown of Abyssal is longer than Scythe? Imo, to make sure the item doesn't go near OP.

Also: you mention the stats a lot of times, but what about the item build up? Would you prefer to hold an item like a Skull Basher or even the Vanguard or a Mystic Staff on an hero like Juggernaut or Slark? Maybe you really like the Int gain, and the mana regen. The majority of people prefer the bash, on heroes where you build attack speed to stay in a teamfight beating everyone to death, instead of coming in and nuking them just the once.

To sum up, you can say you don't really like the new Abyssal, that Scythe fits your style better, etc, etc. That's all perfectly legit. However, that's not the same as saying Abyssal is not worth in more than 2 heroes atm, when the reality of all games that have been played since the change contradict you - and we all know you from often doing very exagerated statements about aspects of the game that you personally dislike.

Which ofc always leads to the Silver Edge: being OP for so long in your claims, I sincerily see no reason why no one else has been complaining about it or why its win and pick rate isn't above the roof... Is every dota player in the world, with the exception of you, blind? xD

Okay, somebody please make that hero with a 2000 range 7 second stun on a 1 minute cooldown then, because I'll be spamming him every game.




Nonsense. Blink-hex to initiate on heroes with BKB is one of the core mechanics in competitive dota. Lion has been a top-tier support since 6.83 for that only.




It *used* to be longer than scythe to balance out carries. Abyssal was a top tier damage item with built-in lockdown, so if the stun was spammable the item would be too good. You just couldn't have carries running around with free stuns and solo killing everybody.

But now that it's no longer a carry item, and it's made for heroes that don't have enough damage to kill heroes in 2 seconds anyways...why indeed. I don't think there's any reason actually. If there is, then please tell me.




Who buys Mystic Staff first to build a sheep? Ultimate Orb first! Which is as good of a buildup as Skull Basher really.
Actually on an AGI carry like Slark or Jugger, I'd much rather have +10 to all stats than a Javelin as my first item...



No, it's because I like the sheep active. It shuts down every hero in the game. And more importantly it prevents heroes from using their items like ghost scepter or blademail. And it lasts long enough to focus down and kill a hero from full HP. It's completely gamebreaking.
And again, 800 cast range. That's 300 more than Lion's hex, and it's one of the many reasons why the item is so good.



No, I'm saying that the 6.87 abyssal change made the item terrible and outclassed by sheep in more than 95% of cases. I think I explained why enough, because unlike some here, I always justify my points. The only question I still have is whether the item is reduced to being viable on only 2 heroes or maybe a few more than that. It's extremely mediocre in any case, the only question is whether it's a bit more redeemable than I initially thought.

The 15 HP regen/second *could* have some use on certain heroes that absolutely need the HP regen and don't need the mana regen from sheep. IMO that's the one possible redeeming factor about the item.
...but then it builds from Vanguard.




Evidence?

There isn't even a 6.87 section on datdota yet so no idea where you get that from.



Personal attacks to compensate for lack of viable arguments? That's pretty sad.



Yeah I agree. I'm literally the only one.

http://www.dotafire.com/dota-2/blog/safecyn/silver-edge-a-brief-reflection-on-an-op-item
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/34ab7k/silver_edge_destroys_huskar_as_a_hero/

The most funny thing is that even if I was the only one saying that it was OP...well that wouldn't prove anything, would it?

You seem to be well versed in those two arguments

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

The only issue is, every other argument falls down instantly so at the end of the day the only arguments you have are those two, isn't it?

I have to side with Hamster here. From the get go I thought that you used way to many argumentum ad populum. I am surprised someone else actually knows what this means.
You seem to be trying to appeal to our feelings rather than convince us with logical arguments.
"But you're smarter than that" - "take the easy road".
Now cmon I can't belive that this happened by accident.
While I do not necessarily share Hamstertamer's view (although I think the item is too strong right now) he has laid out a hell lot of reasons for his side while you only gave a few arguments like the build-up that are actually meaningful.
Please don't take this personally but I think we are getting a bit too emotionally here.
Maybe we should calm down for now, wait a few days and then we can have an objectice discussion and might be able to find some common ground.

PS: I know that I have no right to interfere like this in Dotafire but I just felt that it was necessary. Sorry about that.

Argumentum ad populum is complete trash because vast majority of people have no idea how things work in Dota and simply repeat smthing said/done by actually good players. If you have any doubt in this, just do something slightly unusual that actually works and see people react(spoiler alert: they will flame you for anything they will deem "silly", because they always think they know better).

I mean, Hamster can be pretty stubborn or biased in his arguments at times, but he was right about Silver being overpowered all that time, not in general(because until it got it's 6.87 buff it wasn't really worth getting it just for damage reduction and bonus dmg) but in a sense that it trashed some heroes and this was pretty unfair.

I think that if you really want to prove an arguable point, you better go and play some games of Dota testing because trying to play textdoto is one of the dumbest things you can do. I will never say if something's legit or not until I try it out(unless it's some explicitly stupid thing) or see someone doing it. That's why I also think all this Scythe>Abyssal rant is ******** because it is all text doto when in reality you'd almost never want a Scythe over Blink-Abyssal on a melee carry and BKB-piecring active and bash are super-relevant about 40 mins into the game where absolute majority of pub matches are won or lost. That's just my opinion tho, I don't play heroes that get/got Abyssal this meta so I can't say for sure.

Ok I didn't want to make a long comment on purpose because I thought that was just boring for everyone and I need to fight my inability for short comments, but I see I have no choice xD

1) First of all, Michi: I didn't feel offended at all by Hamster comments, and I think (and hope) he didn't feel offended by mine either. We can have a, let's call it more "heated" discussion about dota subjects, and that doesn't mean we want to insult each other or get emotional. However, and as far as I know, it is legitimate to call to question each other ideas and call them sucky if that's what we think about them - that's what threads and forums are for after all. No meaningless personal attacks were exchanged, and if the style we both use to convey our ideas is more heated than what other people use, well I think both me and Hamster recognize that on each other without hard feelings. If we have to "wait until we can find a common ground", like you say, then no interesting debate about anything can exist, and this site becomes a collection of guides and meaningless threads filled with "I think so too", "glad you agree", or just autistic ones, where someone posts an opinion that no one else shares and gets no answers because we can't contradict him. You probably agree that would be a bad change to this site.

On this note: "But you're smarter than that" - "take the easy road" are two expressions I used for that exact flourish and they weren't even directed at Hamster but at Masaaki, and I'm certainly not implying he's dumb. You can strike both down and you will see the relevant content is unnafected, they were used simply because that's my style in writing. Don't look there for arguments because they aren't arguments, at all; not everyone can be, let's see, Sanvitch, which usually does very syntetic straight to the point comments with little flourishment.

Finally: the only reason why Hamster has laid way more arguments for his opinion that I have is because he was the first one to come up with the idea and other people then answered, and I didn't want to repeat what other people have already said, back and forth. The only thing I did was add arguments that hadn't been touched yet: which are precisily what you call "my only meaningfull arguments".

Similarly, what I said that you like to call argumentum ad populum (which, btw, we all learn in highschool together with other amazingly good sounding argumentative names, so no, wikipedia links are not needed and no one is really impressed by this recurrent subject) wasn't an argument for the subject of Abysssal vs Scythe no itself, which it could never be, for obvious reasons. It was a statement about Hamster and his views, something that I will develop somewhere below. I've noticed none of you like when we talk about the actual person that emits an opinion, but I think that's just similar to having the sensibility of a child: ideas matter the most, surely, but behind every idea there is a man, and that man attitude and life influences the way we perceive that idea and the idea he has on itself. More on this below though.

I thought all of this was obvious, but since it isn't, here's a 20 line long explanation xD




I don't understand what you mean at all. Since you like to use strict numbers, Scythe of Vyze has a 800 range and a 3.5 second duration - is this your exaggeration of it to say that... To say what, exactly? I said, and I repeat, most players prefer a reliable BKB piercing disable then a disable reliant on initiation, hence the heroes currently more picked and the fact that they are still buying Abyssal Blade in other heroes that aren't AM and Spectre only. If you don't agree with this, make yourself clear please.




Oh, we do agree on something. The point you didn't get is this is so true that it concerns the early and mid game, where obviously no one has Scythes nor Abyssals, nor BKBs for that matter. This doesn't change the fact that late game iniating into a sole enemy is way more difficult, because of careful positioning and five manning, and you have to still fight if you want to take objectives even without pick-offs first. In a straight 5v5 fight in the late game, who do you think has more impact, Beastmaster or Lion (and you can change these two with Scythe or Abyssal)? I think it's Beast/Abyssal. You might disagree, and this is one of the points that's in the heart of our disagreement about Scythe vs Abyssal, because I think you're overestimating the raw stats meaning compared to the actual practical use of the item and game development.




I don't agree at all that it is an item made for heroes that don't have enough damage. Cores, per definition, build damage, and this item just gives them HP and a disable, both which they usually lack. It's a different thing to have a Centaur Warrunner with a Abyssal than to have a Slark with one - the first one you can even call utility, if you like, the second one is purely disable for killing. Like you said yourself, you don't want cores to be running around with free stuns and solo killing everyone. You also say that Abyssal now doesn't allow for this. What's the problem then? And what is the problem of getting extra HP and damage block on a core, instead of more damage?





Uhhh then who says you don't buy the Vanguard later also, like you would do with the Mystic Staff]? Stats are good ofc, and I definitelly agree the Ultimate Orb is nice on Slark, Jugger, etc., but isn't it also the Bash? I mean, what you're saying also makes it seem like those heroes woulnd't want a Skull Basher over other items, and if that's what you mean then I disagree, since it could make the difference between a good or a bad teamfight and killing or not that tping enemy.




Funny, Abyssal also shuts down every hero in the game, through BKB. And it also prevents heroes frmo using their items. And as for lasting long enough, Abyssal also does, if you're teamfighting right. Shutting that core with BKB up during a teamfight can also be called gamebreaking. Now, the cast range: you're right as it's super long and one of the reasons why the item is so good. But that's exaclty because it is balanced with other things, like BKBs and dispells - to which Abyssal is impervious. For me it is clear that they are two different items that suit different games and heroes better, depending on the specific circumstances. Just a clear example that we all agree with: Queen of Pain buys Scythe of Vyze, Anti-Mage buys Abyssal Blade. If we analyse these two heroes in depth and theorizy from them as a starting point, we can see the differences in needing one item or the other.





You're saying that the 6.87 change made the item mediocre and that's the thing with which I don't agree, because despite the changes I think the item is still viable in a lot of different heroes and scenarios, bringing some interesting new things to the table (damage block and more HP) and losing others (the damage).


There is either a mistake or a limit comment limitation, so here is the rest:



I was expecting datdota to be brough to the table ahah just because there isn't a section on there doesn't mean there isn't evidence, or that we can't talk about our knowledge of the state of the game until there is.

The evidence I use, personally: Since the patch come out, I played, let's say, 20 games? In 3k pubs; I've watched something like more than 30 high skilled games played; I dialy spend an average of 30/45 minutes reading dota related things, in all kinds of sites. What I mean, therefore, is simple this: you say the item is mediocre and outclassed by Scythe in 95% of games, I see both pubs and competitive still buy Abyssal and use it with success instead of buying Scythe. I'm not saying they are buying more or less Abyssals (I have no idea, my perception is they are buying more or less the same, but that's just my perception), and I'm not saying they stopped buying Scythe, which obviously they didn't. Just that you would expect that, if as you say it is so obvious and 95% for sure better, people would be replacing Abyssal with Scythe clearly, and that has not been happening.




It is not a personal attack, it is a statement, one which I stand by (and as for the lack of viable arguments, hopefully this comment has assured you that is not the case). Like I said above, ideas don't exist in the beautiful vacuoom of the world of ideas, they come from actual people, and saying you disregard which people state which thing is a blatant naive lie. Why do statements coming from high level players count more than from a 1k person, for instance? We all know the answer: because of three reasons, which are competence, impartiality and wisdom. 1k players usually don't have either of the three. Dota firians, all of us, don't usually have the competence part, since with rate exceptions we are only average players. The most difficult thing to overcome, however, is the impartiality: we all know that if we play mostly in a specific role, we will see the changes to the game mainly from that roles' perspective. This should be no surprise, and I don't think neither of us gets offended by being called out on this. If you read anything of me, I'm sure you don't look at the idea on itself without thinking it was ChiChi who produced this, with her strenghts and limitations, or there is another Kyphoid post, we all look at it with a mix of curiosity and readyness to be trolled, etc.

What I stated was something equivalent to what happens when I read you: every since a long time every post of yours comes to us with a controverse idea on a dota aspect that you present in an hyperbolic way, be it a patch change that "broke the game/made completely unviable", or a need to change something that's OP in your opinion and that other people don't regard as such. This is just your taking on most of the things, and I hope you respect the fact that I bring it up, not to insult you in any way, but to show you something about the perception others have from your ideas that you might have or not have noticed, and that cloud your judgment or at least are the drivers behind it.

I don't use this facts as arguments against your ideias on themselves, because they clearly arent' related to that, but they can be used against you as a person that emits ideas, just as you dismiss a 1k when he says Riki is OP. I don't know anything about your competence, we have never played a game together nor you let us see your games, you have some degree of wisdom in my opinion, in the sense that you investigate and think about the things you want to talk over. But you don't have impartiality, or you don't transmit it, so the ideas you come to us with are usually things that seemed to have come out directly from a bad game you had yesterday (like the ideas on sentry changes or the Mirana pickers). You will forgive me, then, if by principle I look more suspiciously at what you say than I do to, let's say Cuttleboss, who I know for being more impartial when it comes to dota idea, even if the competence/execution part is not always on his side :P (I'm expecting some retaliation from this).

What I mean is: Maybe you can make use of this external input on how you think about things to improve yourself and the way you present your ideas. What if, for instance, everything you feel strongly about something in Dota you try to counter-argument that against yourself or relativize it? I do this often, because of my support limitation, among other things, like the running gags I have with people about being manly when I'm actually a very coward player.




There's always that one guy that thinks CM Eye of Skady or Mirana Refresher's Orb is legit (yes Bunkan I'm looking at you), which isn't obviously what I meant by one one agreeing with you - specially if you bring me Safecyn and reddit as examples xD

What I mean is no one with the three things I pointed above (competence, wisdom and impartiality, which includes high skilled people, dota commentators and whoever is in charge of the patches of this game) agrees with you, which is evident from the fact that you have been calling Silver Edge OP since it stopped being purged by BKB and a) that wasn't changed/nerfed yet; b) the item pick-up/winrate didn't skyrocket; b) heroes with passives are clearly still playable.

But let's make this straight for once and for all: I don't come here to go after you personally or any other person, I come to discuss dota and learn more with it. I don't resort to personal attacks after my other arguments "have fallen", like you said, and if you have that impression from what I comment when I answer you directly it is simply because you're a very hard person to discuss dota with, because of the facts that I explained above and this other important thing: everytime I see a thread with your strong opinion on something you come up with it pretty settled already, and I've never seen you change it, for as much as people gave you reasons to. As you can imagine, it feels pretty futile and uninteresting to comment or contradict someone that doesn't seem willing to consider other people's opinions from the start, specially if that goes on a loop. I mean, look at this gigantic comment: don't you think if we both wanted you couldn't answer to every point in it with your own view/refutation, only for me to do the same after, over and over again? The reason why people shut up at some point it's not cause you've "won" or their arguments have fallen short instantly, like you said about mine, it's just there are better things to do when everything has already been laid out and people still disagree about something (which happens regardless of your personal feelings about people, for instance you would probably be surprised on how much and how often I disagree with for instance Timminator regarding dota, and yet he is one of the people which dota wisdom I respect the most usually).

One way or the other, we all want to contribute, I think; there is some asian parabole about how if you exchange an idea with a man, contrary to exchanging other things, none of you is poorer but you're both richer, because now both have two ideas. That's what guided my comment, not some "go against the man" cruisade as you and Michi are implying, we don't even know each other and as far as concerns me you're a great person, I'm here to discuss what and how you think about dota, and I think I can do both and I can call out on your prejudices and limitations, instead of sticking to dota numbers. Theory of argumentation concepts in wiki pages don't make any of this less true. If you want your opinions to be respected and admired, it's not enough to present them with lots of detailed heated arguments, you also need to be a person worth idea respecting, which in this specific field means demonstrating the three characteristics I told you above.

And this humongous comment is all your fault, so that next time you don't think of telling me that I resort to this or that for lack of arguments XD