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Juggernaut-The Invulnerable

May 30, 2014 by MetaGamE
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Xyrus (104) | May 31, 2014 7:43am
MetaGamE wrote:

HOWEVER I want to make one thing clear... none of the items I listed are core at all. Just items that I keep in mind when I want to play Jug. I actually love builds that don't even utilize Bfury. It actually is often more effective to buy Maelstrom, Mask of Madness, and Desolator because Maelstrom gives cheap AoE with decent attack speed/damage, Mask gives the highest attack speed, and Desolator gives the highest damage. Very gold and time efficient to build this way. I guess I need to rearrange this guide to cater to all viewpoints and go more in-depth on how to play early game instead of trying to be a hard carry and buying Bfury and other stuff. I do play often with Drum, Yasha, and other early game items as well.

Agreed, it's not really clear from the Item Build, and bear in mind, a lot of inexperienced players will quickly read the build and assume that they need to follow it to the letter. Organizing the Items should help to clear up a lot of misunderstandings. Afterwards, I might +1 this guide 8{D
MetaGamE wrote:

P.S. I personally have never built a Vanguard on Juggernaut! It is truly situational; the only reason I could think of buying it is if you need a Heart of Tarrasque but you can't afford it so you buy Vanguard. Another reason I listed it is simply because I saw XBOCT buy this as his 2nd item after Soul Ring once, so it has to be at least a little bit viable, right?

It's XBOCT, he was probably trolling. Items aren't neccessarily viable just because a Pr0 built them, sometimes they're just trying new things and Na'vi aren't known for being the most serious team 8{3

You should probably avoid Items that you haven't tried yourself tbh.
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MetaGamE | May 31, 2014 7:27am
I've been looking at all the comments, and there are tons of good points but I also feel like maybe I am not being clear enough in my guide to present my thoughts clearly enough.

If I'm correct, you guys are basically saying that early game Jug should buy early game items, mid game Jug should buy midgame, and lategame Jug should buy lategame. I was only pointing out the simple fact that if you're already winning you might as well rush lategame items to secure the win more easily.

HOWEVER I want to make one thing clear... none of the items I listed are core at all. Just items that I keep in mind when I want to play Jug. I actually love builds that don't even utilize Bfury. It actually is often more effective to buy Maelstrom, Mask of Madness, and Desolator because Maelstrom gives cheap AoE with decent attack speed/damage, Mask gives the highest attack speed, and Desolator gives the highest damage. Very gold and time efficient to build this way. I guess I need to rearrange this guide to cater to all viewpoints and go more in-depth on how to play early game instead of trying to be a hard carry and buying Bfury and other stuff. I do play often with Drum, Yasha, and other early game items as well.

Thanks for the feedback and stuff though this is actually helping me a lot in realizing what I have to do to make a better guide!

P.S. I personally have never built a Vanguard on Juggernaut! It is truly situational; the only reason I could think of buying it is if you need a Heart of Tarrasque but you can't afford it so you buy Vanguard. Another reason I listed it is simply because I saw XBOCT buy this as his 2nd item after Soul Ring once, so it has to be at least a little bit viable, right?
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Ab4ddon._.E43 (12) | May 31, 2014 3:14am
Ughh battlefury, its an 6th or 5th slot pick for me, NEVER core. Battlefury lets you cleave off enemies with your ulti, early game you focus on catching people alone then omni them. Mid game you dont really have that many jumps to cleave enough to make up for the cost, get it ONLY for late game teamfights with maxed ulti and aghs.

Drums yasha with phase/treads is far more worth the money.

And MOM is really not a good item to list as core just for " chasing with Q for kill " , a sniper or drow or any hard rightclicker with chomp you down to bits.
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Xyrus (104) | May 31, 2014 2:44am
Nice Guide, but I simply can't +1 a Juggernaut Guide that lists Battle Fury as Core 8{(

The Cleave is nice, but only if your opponents are dumb enough to clump up during an Omnislash. Compared to Maelstrom, where it's very easy to land Chain Lightning Procs on multiple Heros in a 900 AoE as opposed to a mere 250 AoE on Battlefury's Cleave. Also, I would take Attack Speed over raw damage on Jugg any day, since it not only means more Blade Dance Procs, but more attacks during Omnislash. Also, while the Regen is nice, you don't really need it imo. When you have Spells with a high Mana Cost, but aren't going to be Spamming them very often, it's better just to increase your Mana Pool as you generally only need to worry about having enough Mana to get everything off, since you'll probably win the fight if you do. Therefore, a Drum of Endurance and a Point Booster should be enough early on.

About Mask of Madness...I love it 8{D

Between Blade Fury and Omnislash, you've got 2 good mechanisms for getting around the Damage Amplification, and +100 Movement Speed really suits Blade Fury. Again more Attack Speed means more Blade Dance Proc, more Chain Lightning Procs and more Attacks during Omnislash. It's also useful when Split-Pushing as you can use the Attack Speed to deal more Damage to Towers, then the Movement Speed to run away before the other Team can respond.

I don't like the Shadow Blade though, even n00bs Carry Dust of Appearance when they get Killed by an Invis Hero so many times, and while it's arguably useful for Initiating, a Blink Dagger will get you next to an enemy immediately. It's just outclassed by other Items.

With the Quelling Blade, my usual method of dealing with Heroes that contest my Far is to simply destroy them. Combined with most Slows or even Stuns, Blade Fury is amazing for getting First Blood at lvl1, any decent Lane Partner lets you punish anyone who gets to close to the Creep Wave. A Ring of Aquila and Phase Boots pretty much solve any problems after that.
Moodkill wrote:

I don't agree with Vanguard IMO, getting drums should be more worth it for the jugger.

Agreed, Drum of Endurance is pretty amazing on Juggernaut since he's a good Hero for making use of the Charges early on, he also needs those Stats early on as well. The Damage block from Vanguard isn't that useful for what it costs, and there are better HP Items.

Finally...
MetaGamE wrote:

Blink Dagger: Buying this item sacrifices a lot of power for sheer mobility. You can use it during a spin to chase or escape, to generally just jump walls and juke people, but the most significant reason why you would buy it is to use it during Omnislash against items such as Force Staff. If enemies exit your search range, Omnislash can end before it should, so you can actually use Blink Dagger to prevent this from happening by blinking to another enemy, and you can actually increase the random chance of jumping to a specific enemy by blinking in that direction. Blink Dagger is generally bought by Juggernaut lategame after already having an instakill ult ready to be used.

WTF?! You can Blink during Omnislash?! 8{O
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Krwiozerca (34) | May 31, 2014 1:46am
Ok, I won't quote your response, MetaGamE, it would be too long :).

But I am looking at Juggernaut and his ability to crush enemies on a different perspective. If the enemy team will allow such a hero to grow that much, and in draft they didn't pick any equal/harder carry, or they picked, for example, Faceless Void that is not farmed, then that team do not deserve to win anyway. You are talking about certain situation when Juggernaut can shine, but I want to ask: Why this happened and while this happened - does it really matter which hero is carrying a game?. It could be anyone - Ember Spirit, Shadow Fiend, or even Necrophos.

I just want to say, that going full damage on Juggernaut, relying on Omnislash and have a hope that everything will be fine - it's not a stable move, right?

When Juggernaut has 3 or 4 big damage items it's already over (unless it's like 50 minute of the game). Any farmed decent carry can win a game, even vs. Anti-Mage, Medusa or 8 slotted Spirit Bear and his Lone Druid :).

I like Maelstrom more, because it's cheapier and makes Juggernaut better in his team-fight presence earlier, than building Battle Fury. Even if I had great farm I would go for Maelstrom into Mjollnir. Maybe casual Perseverance for regen (depending on situation).

Mirana provides global smoke gank almost for free :).
In Dota 2 hero pool there are better damage dealers, that is my point. If you can choose another carry that will be babysitted, will be farming and even if he will be almost useless for the first 15-20 minutes, it's the other 4 players job to defend him and the Throne.

Juggernaut is a really fun hero to play, he was one of my favourites some time ago... But now when I reazlied, that he is one of those heroes, that is really good on paper, but there might be better picks for the team, I kind of stopped playing him. He is like Lina or Ursa. OMFG 1250 damage goes through BKB; fu*&king BEAST dealing massive damage, slow, mana-free ultimate, WTF!
This is not OP, this is very situational. I require something stable, reliable. Something, that you can build your strategy on.

I am not anti-Jugger. I just don't like him to be the main damage dealer.

Thanks for a long reply.

P.S.
There is a Hero Hierarchy guide, that is made by DotaFire community, when we can discuss whether each hero should be in certain role, which are divided into Tiers. There you can see where Juggernaut has been put. He is in the Tier Four in Carry role. You can argue with that, but you have to explain why you think different, and our community will discuss that.

Here is this link.
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MetaGamE | May 30, 2014 9:51pm
Eightfold wrote:

I really don't like that mask of madness on him. Smart players will see that you have it on, and simply nuke you down. "But I have Blade Fury on!" you might say. That makes you immune to magic, but you can't attack which renders half of the benefit useless. I do like that Blink Dagger idea though, it'd be really useful for initiating on single targets by blink > spin.


Mask of Madness, at least the way I use it, is not meant to go around trying to make plays by running fast and spinning. You only really actually use spinning with Mask in order to run away, or to secure a kill with a teammate the same way you would with Phase Boots or Drums, just to catch up. The main reason I get it is because is is very cheap and basically allows you to ult a single target more effectively than a Mjollnir (but Mjollnir is better for groups.) It allows you to reach that 300 or so attack speed needed to attack once per jump during Omnislash and then that's all the attack speed you need, meaning you can now invest your money into damage or utility items... for only 1900 gold. You do take more damage but what I actually do a lot before an early game teamfight is pop the healing ward and run in attacking people with Mask activated, then I purge my own buff by spinning after I get close to my opponent so my 30% extra damage taken is gone and they are taking spin damage. I can definitely see why people don't like it but I wanted to point out its benefits in this guide so that although people might not use it, they won't go ballistic when they see a Juggernaut build it.

And yeah, Blink Dagger is a funny item on Juggernaut. People will probably flame you more for buying this than Mask. Again it all depends on the situation and if you use it smartly then those flamers will have nothing to say!
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MetaGamE | May 30, 2014 9:32pm
Krwiozerca wrote:

http://www.dotafire.com/dota-2/blog/dr-d/guide-formatting-and-you

Check this out.

I don't have time to read all of that, but I have to disagree on something. You claim, that Omnislash, unlike many ultimates in Dota, "scales ridiculously well as the game drags on". Well, I think that this statement is wrong. Omnislash is a very situational, unreliable ultimate that is getting weaker and weaker after 30 minute mark.

Also - Omnislash outdamages most late game spells? That's it. In late game, main damage does not come from abilities, but from auto-attacks. I see that you are very excited about this skill, but as far as it looks good on paper, it's not that good.

I would not also be so cheerful about Battle Fury on Juggernaut. Probably I would go for Maelstrom instead.

Juggernaut is not also a "late game hard carry". He is a 2nd, 3rd core semi-carry, who is best around 10-30 minutes. Did you wonder why Juggernaut is never picked in pro scene? There are numerous ways to make his ultimate useless, healing can be provided by supports, crits are rather weak and Blade Fury magic immunity is provided by Black King Bar, and the damage it does can be also done by supports (most notable ranged ones), that are in most circumstances more useful for their team. I guess Mirana is similar to Juggernaut in being a semi-carry, while she can fits more roles and has better skillset overall.

Guide looks nice, I hope you will format this and answer to me. Take care.

P.S. Are you really afraid of Rupture? Man, come on, that's not so scary as you think :)


Hi and thanks for being the first to reply!
I'll definitely have to take the time to format this so people have an easier time reading it...
I can see exactly where you come from on Omnislash falling off and not being effective in pro games. It is very true that it can actually do almost no damage if you do not have the "optimal" items for the situation and the enemy team has tanky heroes, stays close together, and pops a Mek every time you ult. However, if ahead or equally fed, I know from personal experience, even against good players, that a well-timed Omnislash and good initiation from a fellow teammate can kill at least 2 people and quite honestly that's being modest.

You also say that most lategame damage comes from autoattacks rather than spells. I'm not sure if you're missing the point I made that Omnislash is really used to freely autoattack the opponent because of the normal attacks performed, not necessarily because of the "magic damage" slashes. The ability is not really used for the sake of casting a spell and doing damage, but rather granting complete invulnerability and being able to freely autoattack the enemy about 12-13 times with around 300 attack speed and an Aghanim's Scepter, with this damage further amplified with Battle Fury and Mjollnir because they do AoE damage. This is a smaller point but also remember that most carries have to take time to build items such as Heart and BKB to survive in pro games where Jug can actually usually skip that and just build full damage most of the time because of his ultimate. I do understand that in pro games players tend to put more pressure early which is why I also emphasized that you have to change your style depending on what you are up against, and the situation may indeed call for a fast game, therefore getting Maelstrom and Drums might actually be better than buying an expensive Battle Fury. I do agree that Juggernaut is most effective within the first 30 minutes, but I disagree that he falls off. It simply requires good strategy with your team to land a good ultimate, which allows you to attack for free whereas the enemy carry has to try harder and know when to pop his 4 second BKB lategame. If you think he falls off because of the damage, well... if you have 3 or 4 core items lategame trust me no hero will be tanking you not even Axe or Timbersaw.

I also do understand that Battle Fury is an item some players simply don't like getting on Juggernaut, and Maelstrom is actually a very cost-effective item to get instead, however you did not specifically state why you dislike Battle Fury so I can't really address this point further.

Mirana does offer more versatility to her team, whereas Juggernauts holds more versatility in himself. Mirana can land OMGWTF arrows and smoke gank for free, is ranged, and can escape easily with her leap. She is definitely valued higher for her overall contributions to her team. Juggernaut is just somewhat hard to kill because of his spin and can be flexible with many items since he can use them while spinning or Omnislashing. However I don't think that these heroes can accurately be compared as semi-carries since they are so different, and unlike Mirana (at least in my experience) Juggernaut can win a teamfight with a good, strategic Omnislash with the right items whereas Mirana's power comes more from the good arrows and 5-man ganks rather than her own power.

But, this stuff is just my opinion or based on my own experience. Thanks for the feedback and I'll try to take time to format this!
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Moodkill (9) | May 30, 2014 4:16pm
I don't agree with Vanguard IMO, getting drums should be more worth it for the jugger.
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Eightfold (9) | May 30, 2014 3:32pm
I really don't like that mask of madness on him. Smart players will see that you have it on, and simply nuke you down. "But I have Blade Fury on!" you might say. That makes you immune to magic, but you can't attack which renders half of the benefit useless. I do like that Blink Dagger idea though, it'd be really useful for initiating on single targets by blink > spin.
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Krwiozerca (34) | May 30, 2014 3:08pm
http://www.dotafire.com/dota-2/blog/dr-d/guide-formatting-and-you

Check this out.

I don't have time to read all of that, but I have to disagree on something. You claim, that Omnislash, unlike many ultimates in Dota, "scales ridiculously well as the game drags on". Well, I think that this statement is wrong. Omnislash is a very situational, unreliable ultimate that is getting weaker and weaker after 30 minute mark.

Also - Omnislash outdamages most late game spells? That's it. In late game, main damage does not come from abilities, but from auto-attacks. I see that you are very excited about this skill, but as far as it looks good on paper, it's not that good.

I would not also be so cheerful about Battle Fury on Juggernaut. Probably I would go for Maelstrom instead.

Juggernaut is not also a "late game hard carry". He is a 2nd, 3rd core semi-carry, who is best around 10-30 minutes. Did you wonder why Juggernaut is never picked in pro scene? There are numerous ways to make his ultimate useless, healing can be provided by supports, crits are rather weak and Blade Fury magic immunity is provided by Black King Bar, and the damage it does can be also done by supports (most notable ranged ones), that are in most circumstances more useful for their team. I guess Mirana is similar to Juggernaut in being a semi-carry, while she can fits more roles and has better skillset overall.

Guide looks nice, I hope you will format this and answer to me. Take care.

P.S. Are you really afraid of Rupture? Man, come on, that's not so scary as you think :)
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