Tide vs Enigma

Simple really. I was wandering why Tidehunter is picked more (competitively) then Enigma.

From what i can tell, Tide's advantage is that it is not channeled. But, lineup depending, a quick BKB/Linkin Sphere could sort that.

Though I'll admit, picking Enigma in the first phase (where you often see Tidehunter picked) is far too risky. But surely saving him for a 4th/5th choice isn't. If there is no Silencer or Vengeful Spirit already locked in by your 4th pick, i think it could be a worthy pick.

I love both hero's, but i just think Enigma is a little underused. I mean, once he has a BKB up he isn't that much easier to stop than Tidehunter, and the duration is surely worth it? This coupled with Malefice (which i prefer to Gush) and Midnight Pulse make's him both a better disabler and gives him better utility.

And the Eidolons make Jungling a breeze. Even a bad Jungler, like myself, can comfortably have a Ring of Basilius, Soul Ring, Boots of Speed and Blink Dagger before 10 minutes. If you participate in a few ganks, and keep jungling when you aren't, the BKB is normally pretty early as well (if you go this route).

Anyway, there's some of my thought's. I know i'm mainly focusing on Enigma, and i know a double Ravage is a beautiful thing, but I'd like to hear some of the elders opinions on why they think this is.

Romark

Tidehunter does not need as much possitioning to land Ravage. Even at level 1, Ravage has about 1000 (I think it's 1000 for sure) AoE, while Enigma keeps the static 400. Black Hole requires a lot of possitioning, and planing where you use it (sucking people over cliffs into the fog won't make your teammates happy).


Also, while Tidehunter can offlane pretty well against any lineup, Enigma is better suited to jungling. But, he is also susceptible to ganks, more than Tidehunter at least.

Can Enigma offlane as well? Sure he can, but he is very situational, usually you solo Enigma when your team has an aggressive trilane, and you can give him the safe lane farm.

Plus, it's not like both heroes are not affected by Silencer.


Fun fact : Enigma can teamwipe alone with a Refresher Orb, if he catches everyone into the : Midnight Pulse + Midnight Pulse + Black Hole - Black Hole being upgraded by Aghanim's Scepter.

They have different roles:

Tidehunter these days is primarily a solo offlaner, and is a tanky initiator, his ult has a bigger radius and shorter cooldown, but doesn't go through magic immunity.

Enigma is a jungler, pusher and initiator. His ult is harder to land successfully, and has a longer cooldown, channelling, but goes through magic immunity.

I wouldn't say one is better than the other - they're both initiators, and have quite different skillsets. I'd argue Enigma's strength is his early game pushing power, while Tide's is his survivability - Tide's ult is less situational and less dependent on setup, while Nigma's is potentially stronger.

I forgot to mention about Solo offlane, i do get why Tidehunter is picked for this and you don't see him jungling in pro games (except to clear Ancient's and midgame farm). I've never tried Enigma offlane, i just don't think it would be anywhere near as effective as a lot of hero's. In my eye's, and skill bracket, it would be a poor pick (for me).

I agree about the positioning and AoE, tide does win hands down here. I like to try to force the fight's in lane though, then Black Hole isn't at such a disadvantage. I've had a lot of joy with Enigma counter initiating, i think this could be a solution to this as well.

True, Enigma more so though. It's all about timing with Global Silence against Tidehunter, but it cancels channeling the Black Hole so there is less risk for the Silencer.

Romark

This is assuming he is 6 slotted with Mana Boots and Bloodstone, Refresher Orb, Aghanim's Scepter and BKB? Otherwise the Mana is going to be cutting it damn close!



Yeah, i guess i was looking at it mainly from an Initiation point of view. Tidehunter is still another of my favorite hero's, i think i just want to hear Merlini screaming "BLACK HOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!" more often...

Tidehunter gets picked because he's a very good safe offlaner, that doesn't involve playing greedy, and has a great recovery method in farming ancient stacks.

On the other hand Enigma is extremely greedy, somewhat limits the amount of aggresive support rotations you can make. Even though he is the fastest jungler in the game, there are times where that's just not worth it, because of strong opposing lanes, or lots of early push on there team.

Besides, in terms of pro-games you don't normally pick Enigma for Black Hole alone. There have been large number of pro-games where Enigma doesn't use Black Hole or only uses it about once or twice in long games. Enigma is picked for economic advantage, and powerful early pushes due to his ability to farm so fast. It's the same reason why Blink Dagger is usually a late pick-up on the hero compared to like a Tidehunter (Given your first item is almost always a Mekanism.

So whilst yes, Enigma has better utility, the utility comes at a cost, compared to Tidehunter who fufils a required position very well.

if anyone ever buys a bloodstone on enigma i will kick them in the kahones!
ITS NOT THE ONLY ITEM THAT GIVES MANA!!!11!!!1

they have completely different roles, enigma is a greedy midgame pusher with good lategame.
while tidehunter can be picked anytime.

he is great at the offlane, you can put him mid and even safelane farmer in a deathball strat.

So, as far as actual abilities go Enigma has more utility, but as far as game role's/early-mid-late game effectiveness it's Tidehunter who has the edge?

I saw Puppey play Enigma recently and he definitely used the Black Hole more for ganking than in teamfight's. But i put this more down to the positioning being harder to get right, so it is a lot easier in a gank than trying to catch 4 good players in it.



Haha i personally would never, I'd go Shiva's Guard, and for the price you could (just about) get a sheepstick. Bloodstone just seem's very, very wrongly used. I don't think another item on here causes as much rage!

okay, lets analyze

Tidehunter
-Offlane well, great at farming stacked ancients for a fast Blink Dagger
-Very wide range for Ravage, which requires minimum positioning

Enigma
-Farms quick in the jungle
-Ultimate goes through magic immunity

Both heroes farm quick, and both is a very decent initiator. However, Enigma's presence in the jungle made the other lanes weaker, and made him susceptible for ganks.

Tidehunter may seems like a better option here. He has large radius for ulti and cant be interrupted. However, Enigma scales very well into the late game with Aghanim's Scepter and Refresher Orb, and also because it goes through spell immunity. Ravage has a shorter stun duration and does NOT goes through magic immunity.

Yeah... it depends on your lineup really Enigma scales better to the late game but easily shut down and weaken the lanes... While Tidehunter has quite powerful early game but lost some of it's usefulness in the late game due to Black King Bar.


However, for further reference... you cannot basically compare initiators. They have their own use, pros, and cons. I once thought of Overgrowth vs Ravage. However, it cannot be decided which is actually better. It's effect is different and the hero's abilities and impact is different.

Example: Primal Roar vs Fiend's Grip

Both spell goes through magic immunity. Both are powerful disables. The pros, Primal Roar has long range stun and AoE slow. Fiend's Grip has a powerful damage and disable.

Primal Roar has shorter cooldown (especially with scepter) and is not channeling. Also it's long range allows him to stop enemy endeavor (like Chronosphere) from a safe distance.

Fiend's Grip has a powerful damage and a long disable, but it is channeled and the damage doesnt goes through magic immunity. Not to mention that it can be dispelled by hard dispels.



As you see... you may compare each hero for different lineups and strategies... but if you are asking for the BEST initiators or heroes, it can not be declared. All heroes are powerful and has their own pros and cons, therefore declaring a hero the best hero is invalid.

Let us step away from their ultimates for a moment and compare their other abilities.

Enigma has a stun, while Tide has armour reduction.
Enigma has a group of minions (which can deny creeps, farm, and push), while Tide has damage reduction, AOE damage, and Ancient farm.
Enigma has an AOE ability that scales into the lategame, Tide has damage block for the laning phase.

I believe that Enigma is more late-game suited, simple because Black Hole pierces spell immunity and Midnight Pulse deals % based damage.

As for their ults, let's compare.

Ravage pros

• Enormous range (1025)
• Not channelled
• Shorter cooldown

Black Hole Pros

• Longer disable
• Pierces Spell Immunity