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12 Votes

Grim's guide to Viper

May 9, 2014 by ashwinthegrim
Comments: 19    |    Views: 69985    |   


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coldheart009 | April 19, 2017 6:46am
Great guide... I normally don't use meka (I am noob so that explains it). I get the normal boots first then go for dragon lance right away., this is give me a more advantageous position when it comes to range. After that I can complete my power threads then go for either S&Y or Butterfly.
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ChiChi (47) | April 19, 2017 7:25am
Please note that this guide dates from 2014, so before there were even items like Dragon Lance in the game. Probably the author would upgrade his builds, if he was still around :)
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ashwinthegrim (7) | May 30, 2014 10:25am
hawisdat wrote:

I like your guide +1
Would you consider getting Radiance? Viper is tank and he will benefit on the DoT from the item.


I wouldn't get a Radiance on a Viper.. Here is the reason.. A Radiance is a great item on a tanky hero, no doubt, however, the effectiveness of the item comes from how early you can grab it.. A 15 minute Radiance is great.. However, if you wait until 35 to 40 minutes, the damage starts to fall off.. This means, if you want a Radiance, it SHOULD be a first item (Observe the fact that most Radiance carriers like Spectre or Naga Siren or Lone Druid usually rush the Radiance even before they upgrade their boots).. However, with a early-game-squishy hero like Viper, the Mekansm is much more important.. By the time you finish a Mekansm, your Radiance will be delayed so much that it is usually not worth it.. At this point, you'd rather build up your DoT, and go for an Aghanim's Scepter, and start building into more tank..
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hawisdat | May 30, 2014 9:49am
I like your guide +1
Would you consider getting Radiance? Viper is tank and he will benefit on the DoT from the item.
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DonnyDonnowitz (3) | May 29, 2014 7:26am



I feel Drum of Endurance is more suited for squishy mid game heroes to give them a little more sustain during mid game teamfights. With Mekansm, going for Drum of Endurance isn't needed, and it would only slow down the Aghanim's Scepter. And, Mekansm is such a great item on Viper that I wouldn't forsake it for a drum. Ideally, I'd much rather have someone else build the Drum of Endurance while I focus on getting treads, mek and aghs up asap.

Also, Drum of Endurance's active isn't mandatory, since you have plenty of chasing power with your skill set.


Agreed..after posting that I played a few games by skipping the drum and going straight for Mek and Agh's. This made a huge difference having the Agh's so much earlier, his ult had much more impact.
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ashwinthegrim (7) | May 24, 2014 1:10am

+1 nice guide and well done. This is typically how I play my viper as well. You may want to consider adding Drum of Endurance in there as well. It's a nice item to have a long with Phase Boots if you're ganking from the midlane.


I feel Drum of Endurance is more suited for squishy mid game heroes to give them a little more sustain during mid game teamfights. With Mekansm, going for Drum of Endurance isn't needed, and it would only slow down the Aghanim's Scepter. And, Mekansm is such a great item on Viper that I wouldn't forsake it for a drum. Ideally, I'd much rather have someone else build the Drum of Endurance while I focus on getting treads, mek and aghs up asap.

Also, Drum of Endurance's active isn't mandatory, since you have plenty of chasing power with your skill set.
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DonnyDonnowitz (3) | May 22, 2014 8:30pm
+1 nice guide and well done. This is typically how I play my viper as well. You may want to consider adding Drum of Endurance in there as well. It's a nice item to have a long with Phase Boots if you're ganking from the midlane.
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ashwinthegrim (7) | May 21, 2014 3:14pm
Safecyn wrote:

Jumping on the bandwagon of praise for this great guide! One suggestion: you may want to post that large comment you wrote into it's own section on the main guide, since there's a lot of good discussion in there, and it's already long enough to merit its own section.


Done!

Thanks for the praise.
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Safecyn (32) | May 12, 2014 12:24pm
Jumping on the bandwagon of praise for this great guide! One suggestion: you may want to post that large comment you wrote into it's own section on the main guide, since there's a lot of good discussion in there, and it's already long enough to merit its own section.
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Illumination0110 (2) | May 11, 2014 8:47am
Very well-written. +1 from a 150 game-ish Viper player like me. Covers literally everything about himself.
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ashwinthegrim (7) | May 10, 2014 8:44pm
Jch126 wrote:

I feel that you should consider adding a hex to the situational items list as its usually a better choice than a heart.


I disagree. Between Viper Strike and your natural slows, you have plenty of control. You don't need a hex on top of it. Heart of Tarrasque gives Viper significantly more ability to tank. The hex is more suited for heroes that need to burst down their enemies. That isn't Viper's style; you are more of a "chip down the enemies health until they die" kind of hero.
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Jch126 | May 10, 2014 3:53pm
I feel that you should consider adding a hex to the situational items list as its usually a better choice than a heart.
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ashwinthegrim (7) | May 10, 2014 1:24pm
Xyrus wrote:
I would add Pipe of Insight to Situational (sometimes you have to worry about massive Magical Damage output on the other Team.


Agreed, added :)

Xyrus wrote:
One thing I don't agree with however is the Sange and Yasha. You say it gives more EHP, but remember, you get 6 less Strength for 6 more Agility on a Manta Style, which is the equivalent to trading 114HP for nearly a point in Armour. 1 point in Armour is worth 6%EHP, so as you get more and more HP, Manta Style will inevitably offer better Stats.

Also, you say Viper isn't a good Illusion Hero. I disagree, since Viper's Illusions gain Nethertoxin, meaning they're quite Tanky. This is useful when Split-Pushing, since what good are Illusions that die before they reach the Tower or get killed by the Creep Wave? They even Damage and Slow anyone that tries to clear them, which can be quite troublesome for Squishy Supports.


When I said Viper wasn't a good illusion based hero, I meant to say, the illusions don't have as much presence as, say, a Luna's illusions, which gain Moon Glaives and can split push really fast, or a Phantom Lancer's illusions, which can replicate themselves and keep the push going.

With a 2100 item in the build-up, I felt that Manta Style was a risky pickup for the returns it offers. I do agree that the trade-off between a Manta Style and Sange and Yasha is negligible in terms of HP vs armor, but SnY seems such an easier-to-build item compared to a Manta Style.

I think, in the end, it comes down to whether there are enemy heroes with stuns I can disjoint from Manta Style. If there are, I think it is worth the risk. But if there aren't, I feel going SnY is just safer.

Xyrus wrote:
Also Greater Maim sucks since you already have 3 much more reliable Slows, but being able to Disjoint a Projectile with god timing can potentially turn a fight around.


Yep, I agree Greater Maim is unnecessary. I had suggested the SnY for the more EHP rather than the maim.

F.E.A.R.0 wrote:

I personally max Poison Strike and Nethertoxin. I my self dislike Sange and Yasha on Viper. Consider adding Daedalus and Manta Style.


Maxing Poison Attack is highly situational. In most cases, it is suboptimal. Since the change to Poison Attack with the skill having no cooldown since level 1, there is no reason to maximize it over Corrosive Skin, which is a great anti-harassment skill.

The only reason I might max Poison Attack over [{Corrosive Skin]] is if I'm laning against a melee hero (highly unlikely, since no team with half a brain would lane a melee against a Viper), and I'm sure that I'll be under no pressure whatsoever. In that case, maxing Poison Attack for the higher slow % and DoT might be useful.

As for Daedalus, I strongly disagree with the pickup on a Viper. See the last section of the guide for my reasoning.

samukobo wrote:
Have you considered Phase Boots? I've seen it a bit in pro matches, a way to compensate for both his bad ms and rather low damage (compared to full-on carry Viper) due to the build.


This is probably one area where I have been going back and forth the most. Phase Boots give the much needed mobility, which in certain scenarios can make the difference between escaping a gank and dying, whereas Power Treads provide the flexibility that allows you to get one more Poison Attack in by switching to int. In the end, I think it depends on where I'm laning. If I'm laning safe lane, I would prefer going Power Treads, since I'm not contesting for last hits, and less susceptible to ganks. In the middle lane, I would go for Phase Boots, to escape ganks, contest runes and get more damage to harass.

samukobo wrote:
Blademail and Blink Dagger are also 2 situational items I can think of.


Blademail is a great pickup, I agree.

Blink Dagger seems a contradictory item to Viper. You don't have any blink-initiation skills, and the range on Aghs ult is already so freaking huge. Also, Viper Strike + run away is a great escape mechanism, especially once you get the Aghs.
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