Searching through all item combinations

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Forum » Theory Crafting » Searching through all item combinations 30 posts - page 2 of 3
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by plaq » July 14, 2016 2:33pm | Report
PsychoKitten wrote:

academic interest


that's the right name :-).

honestly, I'm all in for academic interest and theory-crafting issues (not only in doto). I agree that simulating real ingame situation is hardly possible... But I think that armour and rightclick steroids are such important factors that they need to be calculated in.

With increasing armour you will encounter situations where mana break/time lock/maelstrom proc etc gain more importance thus increased attack speed would be more benefical to capitalize on these procs etc

With decreasing armour (you can count in some auras and make model situations) and you can get different results (you can for example calculate how much minus armour/as/dmg you need to have for deso to be more beneficial than bloodthorn/daedalus etc)

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by YellulzQuiet » July 14, 2016 2:49pm | Report
Sometimes i hear here that Moonshard is the best dps item in the game, is this statment true according to your search ?

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by PsychoKitten » July 14, 2016 3:19pm | Report
Quoted:
Sometimes i hear here that Moonshard is the best dps item in the game, is this statement true according to your search ?


Hyperstone and Moon Shard has not shown up so far when optimizing for DPS in my model. The typical add-on to the builds above beyond 4 slots are Desolator and another Daedalus, they appear to produce more DPS. The reason why, we are debating here: plaq thinks that it is because the model does not take effects like mana burn and armor piercing attacks into account completely. It should explain part of it, but I think that the damage items in the game are simply more powerful than the IAS items (an also more expensive for this reason), so you can't "win" against Daedalus and Desolator for damage output by stacking Moon shards. Hyperstone and Moon shard remain situational items, in my opinion (think permastun, Assault Cuirass etc).

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by plaq » July 14, 2016 3:45pm | Report
WELL, if you hit like a wet noodle, there's no point in hitting like two wet noodles by getting more attackspeed. In model sition which is given in this thread (zelo armour, no attack modifiers), I guess getting second/third Daedalus may be even better than moonshard(not sure, can't try it in work).

Hyperstone/moonshard earlier - as second/third major item- is great for those heroes that have strong attack steroid built in - such as OD or Luna

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by TheSofa » July 14, 2016 3:55pm | Report
Wet pool noodles hurt a whole bunch.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by PsychoKitten » July 14, 2016 4:02pm | Report
It seems like the forum is very DPS-oriented :) All questions are about DPS, no one has mentioned EHP, mana etc.? Everyone plays carry, it seems.

Personally, I am more into support/tank heroes. So what I usually use the model for is to find cheap builds to get good mana, EHP and regen for a decent amount of gold, when those pesky AGI DPS heroes feed on me... Those calculations are more accurate and where the search approach really shines. The advantage is that the search script has no regards for "conventions". For example, it was noted in the forum that people buy the Dragon Lance on melee heroes just for the stats, which wouldn't normally make sense. But the Dragon Lance does show up in my searches, because it is very cost effective sometimes.

I will give an example: consider Treant Protector, with Aghanim's Scepter, you get the awesome Eyes in the Forest spell, which can turn the game if you get it early and spam those free wards and farm with your ulti. But the standard Power Treads Ring of Basilius + Aghanim's Scepter build is 6050 gold. With that build you get:
  • DPS: 134
  • EHP(dmg): 2764
  • EHP(magic): 2553
  • Mana: 765
  • Mana regen: 2.5

around level 11. We are clearly sacrificing a lot to get to the Eyes spell early. How much? A few quick searches reveal some alternative builds:
  • Power Treads + Ring of Aquila + Chainmail + Rod of Atos for 5985 gold. It gives 618 more EHP, 101 more Mana, +2/s Mana regen, about the same DPS, and the cripple spell. All of this makes you much more useful in team fights. Treant uses about 800 mana/minute in full blast with all his spells so that Mana makes a difference.
  • Power Treads + Veil of Discord + Energy Booster + Buckler + Cloak for 5840 gold. That one also gives + 618 EHP, + 113 EHP(magic), +6 HP/s, +123 Mana, -0.5 mana regen, and same DPS for less gold. I haven't tried this one, but might work in some circumstances.

It works like an automated build guide generator for different scenarios, which is why I like it, and find it useful. And by the way, I didn't really understand Chainmail until I played Treant :)

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by TheSofa » July 14, 2016 4:21pm | Report
but...

Vision is worth about 300 gold per instance :)

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by YellulzQuiet » July 14, 2016 4:32pm | Report
Nobody is asking about Mana is because mana is very acessive with Soul Ring abuse with Tranquils or Arcane boots, we have clarity for infinity mana to supports and gankers, and Carrys have Echo Sabre now, also nobody ask about EHP because dota is too much more today a question of positioning than being the Super tank(offlaners are more likely to initiate than tank too), i prefer to have Mobility, Lockdown and LOTs and LOTS of damage to kill enemy before my stuns come on cd or he can escape.

But dont think we reddit here :), we have a lot of support players, Sando is the best support of the forum and have many guides of how to support, he is the perfect 5 support, we also have Hamster, but he is more suited to the 4 crazy diving support that ult in the middle of enemy team.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Hamstertamer » July 14, 2016 5:32pm | Report
The thing is, if you want mana as a support, just buy Arcane Boots, you're set. If you want to stay alive as a support, HP is mostly irrelevant, what matters is your positioning, Observer Wards, and cheap defensive items like Ghost Scepter, Blink Dagger, Force Staff and Glimmer Cape. You'll survive far longer with that stuff than you'll ever will with a bunch of hearts. Building stats and survivability is essentially only relevant on cores.
Like, why would you build armor or physical EHP on a support when there's an item that makes you literally immune to right clicks for 4 seconds?

For example, there's no point in having a tanky Treant. After the early game is over and Living Armor falls off, Treant is really a walking ulti, so as long as you ult at the right time in the right place, everything else doesn't matter.
Even if there was a build that gave 3000 HP more than aghs for the same price, aghs would still be better because it improves your ult which is your only contribution to the game.

Essentially as a support you don't care about the stats an item gives you. Only its active. See the stats like an added bonus that's it.

YellulzQuiet wrote:

we also have Hamster, but he is more suited to the 4 crazy diving support that ult in the middle of enemy team.


...Pretty much XD
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Sando » July 15, 2016 12:36am | Report
Thanks Yellulz - although don't forget Angelo, his Chen is certainly better than mine :). I've also seen Nubtrain play a mean Crystal Maiden.

To PsychoKitten: interesting idea, and good to see what results you get. There's a lot of difficult problems to solve around including passives, armour and utility in a mathematical construct.

For example, stacking Butterfly may seem to give the most EHP against physical damage, but the second the enemy carry builds a Monkey King Bar, most of that is wasted. Same with things like Blink Dagger - it has no statistical value, at all. However, many players would argue it's the best item in the game.

On the support stuff - mana is important, but again, abilities come into play. My needs as Crystal Maiden, KOTL or Lich are totally different from say Enigma or Skywrath Mage.

I do bang on occasionally that stats are somewhat important for pub level players, and picking up enough EHP to survive a combo is necessary sometimes. So uses there. For example, when are you best picking up a casual Cloak versus picking up a Bracer? (e.g. how many existing HP would you need, what mix of physical/magical damage are you up against).

However, as Hamster and Yellulz pointed out, utility is king. Urn of Shadows probably never shows up on your program, because cost per stat wise, it'll be below Bracer. However, the ability to heal allies for 400 a time or get that vital tick on a fleeing enemy won't show. Likewise, Ghost Scepter might not be that efficient stat-wise, but it could easily save you where an Ultimate Orb that gives you twice as much wouldn't.
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