Oracle as a #2-3 :: DOTAFire

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wrote:

I'm kind of going with Hamster on this one.

I was writing my Oracle guide (spoilers, in case anyone cared) and basically my conclusion is he lacks the chops to really carry, and the 1.4 BAT is just a nice little bonus attack for when you disarm heroes like Ursa and not something to be built around.

Every benefit of his aside from the BAT is grantable to his allies, and his mana problems, although noticeable before Arcanes, is not really big compared to heroes like Shadow Shaman or Ancient Apparition. Also, he has to channel in order to unleash his purge-root, which is time not spent attacking. Fate's Edict amps all non-magic damage, not just Oracle's, and False Promise goes much better on a hero who does a lot more innate damage.

Like, all Oracle needs is Arcane Boots and he's high impact just because his spells have massive cast range.

So, Coracle, although seems good in theory, does not have a way to farm, and even though he can have some decent dps, there are a lot of better core heroes that are much more reliant on farm that can achieve better results due to higher damage or farm rate, like Slardar and Leshrac.

And although Orchid-Manta on Oracle is fun, it's not something you can expect to win with, just like the useless Dagon build.

Hmm... What if instead of building carry items, you get utility items on core instead? For example, a quick Eul's Scepter and/or Arcansm boots () will make your team ultra-survivable and thus make it easier to perform early pushes. Pretty sure in a dual offlane situation can get most of the last hits in the lane with and even secure a kill or 2 on the enemies in the lane.

Also, I think that can farm at a decent rate with , although obviously farms faster. I'd say that hero's pretty powerful in this patch, definitely getting a nerf next patch.

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wrote:

The idea has been known since got into the game.

Nope, because I was playing Jugg 2 years ago. And lots of people were too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWQkRL-hyq4

Singsing playing this in 2013.

Nobody was brave or innovative in any way by going for Mom Jugg. They just recycled an old build which has always been good.

I did try it. Right when the hero was released. It sucked.

Yes, people trying out new stuff and asking opinions about it.
- Carry Oracle is not new stuff.
- You asked people for their opinion so you can't blame me for giving my honest opinion.

Kind of, but it's still kind on a weaker version of .

You know, I'm trying to help you here. If you don't read the theorycrafting section you won't be so annoyed --> life improved.

Anyway, yeah. You know about the Jugg build 2 years ago, singsing tried it blablabla, I get it, but i just tried to give an example of a pretty ******ed build that ended up working in the end. I don't have any examples off the top of my head right now, so I'm not going to say anything else. has been given some changes from when it was released, so maybe you can try it again? I dunno, my conversations with you don't go anywhere and I end up feeling pretty annoyed afterwards. You know, forget what I said. Maybe I should just stop posting in the theorycrafting section if I don't wanna be so annoyed lol.

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Remarkable (46)
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What about instead of Core, take it into utility/nuker..
yeah i know you have heard about the old Oracle Nuker build (dagon) wat about mix it with utility then, viola!! a very strong oracle that can help his team mates while raining down damage to enemies

Like take: Arcansm boots (), Then take level 1 dagon, then take , and so on and so forth just get like 1 core ite like lets say or
or stuff.

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Dagon e blade works on all heroes. Innate nuking power is all the more awesome. Its just that one generally doea not have enough resources if not a core to build it. If u get under some 25 mins the game would be awesome for the next 10 to 15 mins. If you are not able to finish the game within that time however, its effectiveness would lessen.

Edit
OMG I just noticed, the comment is so off topic. Ignore it please.

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Well, it remains that the only thing you get from playing as a core over playing him as a support is building right-click items. It's kind of a waste of farm.

- Item independent heroes are pretty much meant to be played as hard supports. So if you build and on or , this solves the hero's mana issues completely so they can use their abilities. So a support Oracle or Dazzle will have exactly the same game impact as a core Oracle or Dazzle...except that they can't right click.

- Slightly item dependent heroes like , , or for that matter...are meant to be played as rich supports. They have a native farming skill (, , ...) that allows them to get the items they need. So if you know how to farm efficiently with them they'll get their items easily. Playing them as cores is literally a way of saying "I don't know how to farm efficiently so I'll be hogging mid lane and taking tons of space from my team to compensate for my lack of farming skill".

Good support players are constantly trying their hardest to have their support have the same game impact as a core. All I'm seeing with core // whatever is a core having the game impact of a support.

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No offense, but that ^ right there should have been your original post.

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wrote:

No offense, but that ^ right there should have been your original post.

My thoughts exactly

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I actually like mid oracle a lot as a niche pick... He is capable of a fair amount of lane control, and he does stupidly good burst damage early on. If you know his combo, at level 7 he can dish out ~700 damage in 2 seconds... That's quite a lot when followed up by backup. I think he has his ups and downs, but from playing him mid I think he is certainly viable

Also, purge has a video he posted about 3-4 weeks ago where he played mid oracle and gave his opinions on it. ;)

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At the end of the day, ths big issue is that even if you get a truckload of Farm on , does it make a real difference comapred to more suitable Cores?

No.

The best Cores are ones that can make use of getting Items asap to drastically improve their performance. Most Offlaners get a huge spike when they get their s. Most Mids or Safe Laners suddenly beomce huge threats after <Insert Item> + .

You might think there's a noticable difference if you get a positioning Item, i.e. or , but with 1000 Range on , you don't really need them to save Allies, you just need good Positioning in fights.

Hamster has already pointed out the flaw on .

While you can get Damage Items on , with 0HP, you're hardly a threat against a competent team since you'll either get kited or Locked down and eliminated.

You can solve the above problem by getting Items like , etc., but you're going to be spending at least 8k Gold just to be able to stay in the middle of fights. While can get Last Hits quite easily, he cannot clear Stacks fast enough to Farm these Items up in a reasonable time.

Core might work as a niche pick, but even Core is far more viable tbh. 8{(

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You can actually farm reasonably quickly with if you have mana regen and some levels in - the problem with this early on is it means fewer levels in - not good.

Overall I have to agree with the POV of he doesn't make a particular good core - 80%-90% of what he can do as a core, he can do as a mildly itemised support.

Generally this starts putting you into the #4 category - slightly needy in terms of gold and levels, but nowhere near enough to be a proper core.

I'd only play him mid if the draft somehow meant he had to be there as your other potential mid pick was heavily countered, and he isn't. Fast levels do quite a lot for him, but he's got to stay ahead and win early to remain relevant.

Saying all this, if the situation warrants, I think he can make a pretty good early core transistioning to support hero (like a midlane for example) - where you win your lane well, gank like crazy, and "swap roles" with a support or for example.

I like the old term "semi-carry" here rather than core. Basically a hero who farms heroes rather than gold and has strong early-midgame impact.

And no, don't try to explain this to anyone in a pub :).

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