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Void if pro scene.

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Forum » General Discussion » Void if pro scene. 22 posts - page 2 of 3
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Hamstertamer » March 21, 2015 2:14pm | Report
Ummm...how are Troll and Sniper good against Void?

I mean, Troll is pretty easy to burst down early game by a Void + Sky or whatever combo. Sure he will buy lots of tank items so he can be pretty hard to kill unless void has tons of damage, but since he can't use axes or bash in chrono he doesn't counter Void the way he counters other melee carries.

And Sniper...is this a joke? Gap closer + 5 second disable...absolute free kill. If Void does anything else than chrono Sniper in every fight he's the worst player in the world. For me Void is at the PA/Clinkz level of Sniper hard counters :)

Actually as Dimony said Void is really good with both Troll and Sniper. Troll for the awesome attack speed and Sniper because he can right-click from outside.

So why no Aghs/offlane Void is not that obvious...actually offlane/utility Void hardly got nerfed only carry Void was, since the cooldown nerfs only affect the non-Aghs ulti. Aghs Void is still black hole on a 1 minute cooldown.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Sanvitch » March 21, 2015 2:22pm | Report
Hamstertamer wrote:

Ummm...how are Troll and Sniper good against Void?

I mean, Troll is pretty easy to burst down early game by a Void + Sky or whatever combo. Sure he will buy lots of tank items so he can be pretty annoying, but since he can't use axes in chrono he doesn't counter Void the way he counters other melee carries.

And Sniper...is this a joke? Gap closer + 5 second disable...absolute free kill. If Void does anything else than chrono Sniper in every fight he's the worst player in the world.

Actually Void is really good with both Troll and Sniper. Troll for the awesome attack speed and Sniper because he can right-click from outside.

So why no Aghs/offlane Void is not that obvious :)


Well Faceless Void isn't the best gap-closer in the world - given that you know th cast time of Chronosphere + Time Walk means blinking out is more than possible And if you use you Time Walk to jump in and can't get the Sniper because he blinks you get punished so hard. And a well positioned Sniper sits far enough back that getting him with Chronosphere is harder than it sounds on paper.

Faceless Void also stays squishy, which is bad against glass cannons like Sniper. Sniper is a good pusher, and 1 position Void has no depush when Sniper is pushing. And Sniper can simply push during the frame that Chronosphere is down, and Void can do nothing to stop him.

And again with Troll Warlord, he's a hero that can build Blink Dagger, he builds tanky, he's a better man-fighter. Sure, you can probably get him early game, but late game? Troll Warlord is too tanky to burst down in Chronosphere, and deals too much damage for you to manfight. As well as again, being a great pushing hero.

Since you just can't have enough Chaos Breaker.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Hamstertamer » March 21, 2015 2:24pm | Report
Sanvitch wrote:

can't get the Sniper because he blinks you get punished so hard. And a well positioned Sniper sits far enough back that getting him with Chronosphere is harder than it sounds on paper.


Just go EE style Blink Dagger or Shadow Blade Void.
Problem solved.
Honestly there's really no "sitting back out of trouble" against a Void who knows what he's doing. He'll just wrap around or timewalk through. The big strength of Void is that he can focus the backline of a fight.

True Troll is tanky but he's still not Morphling level of unkillable. And even with Morph I have problems surviving chrono sometimes. Troll does well against Void I agree but I still wouldn't call him a counter.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Timminatorr » March 21, 2015 2:29pm | Report
Hamstertamer wrote:



Just go EE style Blink Dagger or Shadow Blade Void.
Problem solved.

that battlefury blink refresher build, never forget. (also that offlane spectre in that game....)

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Sanvitch » March 21, 2015 2:31pm | Report
Hamstertamer wrote:



Just go EE style Blink Dagger or Shadow Blade Void.
Problem solved.


And then you have the issue of having less damage items effectively. And given Void already struggles with that... It doesn't bode well. Hell, Sniper even builds somewhat tanky as things stand. Hell, it's 2-3k gold that doesn't increase your farming speed either, which is another problem with Faceless Void. And if you build it after say MoM or Maelstrom, Sniper probably has an item or two, which means he probably gets a bit tankier, since Sniper atm seems to favour items like Eye of Skadi or SnY.

It's not as plain as you like to make it. Especially since building Blink Dagger or Shadow Blade still doesn't address the idea that Sniper is a pushing hero, which 1 position Void sucks against.

Since you just can't have enough Chaos Breaker.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Hamstertamer » March 21, 2015 2:36pm | Report
Shadow Blade is about the same DPS as a Yasha. Only Blink Dagger reduces your DPS. And since you're just using the item to wrap around from long range you don't even care about sentries.
AND you're forcing an early blink on Sniper, a hero with terrible farming speed.

I can only speak of personal experience, but every game I played with Void I never had any problems with blink daggers (either catch the guy with the tip of the chrono from fog, or buy blink/shadowblade), and Sniper has never been anything else than food when I played him, since focusing Sniper first in every teamfight is essentially autowin.
When Sniper is pushing a tower, he's really a prime target for chrono. Actually what makes Sniper such a good pusher is the fact that he can damage towers from outside of initiation range.

And seriously... Time Walk 1300 freaking range, it's the longest range blink in the game. Void has 1300 + 600 (chrono cast range) = 1900 initiation range!
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Sanvitch » March 21, 2015 2:50pm | Report
Hamstertamer wrote:

Shadow Blade is about the same DPS as a Yasha. Only Blink Dagger reduces your DPS.
AND you're forcing an early blink on Sniper, a hero with terrible farming speed.

I can only speak of personal experience, but every game I played with Void I never had any problems with blink daggers (either catch the guy with the tip of the chrono from fog, or buy blink/shadowblade), and Sniper has never been anything else than food when I played him.
When Sniper is pushing a tower, he's really a prime target for chrono.

And seriously... Time Walk 1300 freaking range, it's the longest range blink in the game.


DPS? Sure I'll give you that on Shadow Blade. Farming speed, it's much worse.

Sniper early Blink? Sure, I'll give you that as well, but Sniper gets early kills more often than Faceless Void, and thus can snowball better. But that is situational I will again give you. So let's call it even there.

I will say; Sniper can push more often than Chronosphere is up. This was one of the big things about deathball/push meta, where teams would usually either go for either the pushing death ball, or the team-fight one. Unless the team-fight line-up achived big things with each team-fight that they drop these big cooldown ulti's, and then the push line up shrugs it off, and moves on to the next tower. Because there downtime is lesser than the cooldown orientated draft. It's something appreciated in pro play more than pubs.

And if Time Walk was as instant as Blink Dagger, I'd say he's better against Blink Dagger. But as it is, you have the jumping in, which is visible most of the time, and then the cast animation of Chronosphere. Which for pro-players is not an unfeasible time to blink out.

I'll also state; I'm arguing this in terms of competitive, and thus high skilled game-play as the OP asked. Thus why I make certain assumptions about situational awearness and item timing that I wouldn't from pub play. If we were talking about pubs, then yeah I'd agree that Sniper is probably just food for Faceless Void

Since you just can't have enough Chaos Breaker.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Hamstertamer » March 21, 2015 3:01pm | Report
Sanvitch wrote:


I will say; Sniper can push more often than Chronosphere is up.


Yep, he can. That's why Void got nerfed! Old imba Void used to have 20 sseonds less of cooldown on chrono, so he could deal with pushing strats easily with this broken 80 second cd chrono. Now of course you can actually push against a Void by taking advantage of cooldowns :)
So yes the current Void is pretty weak against push strats so he can have trouble against a Sniper lineup if they're really ahead.
But it essentially comes down to this fact : both Void and Sniper are extremely momentum-dependent carries and both are absolutely terrible from behind. So who gets the early advantage wins :)

But if you're talking purely in terms of competitive gameplay, Void is not played as a main carry but as a deathball hero so it's different anyways.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Dimonychan » March 21, 2015 3:04pm | Report
Well theoretically Void can catch Sniper in Chronosphere AND deal good gamage with Mask of Madness+ Black King Bar, but it(again, theoretically) can be evaded with Blink+ultra paranoid playstyle. It's just all about who is better in this matchup.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by F.E.A.R.0 » March 21, 2015 3:06pm | Report
Dimonychan wrote:

Well theoretically Void can catch Sniper in Chronosphere AND deal good gamage with Mask of Madness+ Black King Bar, but it(again, theoretically) can be evaded with Blink+ultra paranoid playstyle. It's just all about who is better in this matchup.

Faceless Void can **** on Sniper. Void deals insane damage with MoM. Also purchasing ASU increases his solo killing and he has a Chrono every 60 seconds.
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