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Level 6 from the very start of the game

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Forum » Theory Crafting » Level 6 from the very start of the game 16 posts - page 2 of 2

Poll Question:


Is this change desirable?
Yes
No
Desirable with some changes
Cannot answer
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kyphoid returns » November 22, 2014 12:17pm | Report
I slightly agree with you man, but you are forgetting one thing.
Of one team has lvl 6 the other team has got one too! That tower push you are talking about is merely turning a blind eye that the defenders have that walking ulti type too if that were the case.
My aim is to appraise the meta. We were psyched about 6.80 and look what ti4 brought us- deathball.

Speaking of individual skill we always forget that dota is a 5 man game. If a turnaround does happen its through a combined effort of 3 or more players. I watched the same games as you did.

As for storm and shredder you would still need a well concerted effort to materialize the kill. We always understimate the power of counterinitiation.

I don't know what will happen at ti5 but whatever it is, it will find fault with current meta as has happened every time a ti was held. Then people change their opinions on how screwed the game was.

Take an objective view, cross your heart and answer if both teams have 1 lvl 6 hero how would it affect the game that drastically so as to push towers insanely. The other guy has the same skill points a s you have! Come near towers and i chain frost. Come near towers i toss+ echo slam.
Try your ball lightning and i use Disruption. The big thing that would change is indeed the laning. Yes it would change to the fact that carries turtling are disadvantaged. But that is well compensated. I am not saying accept this as it is, i am not saying accept it at all. I am saying given some changes to early game exchanges wont the game timings become consistent?
Your comeback skill argument still holds true here.
Imo, the comeback mechanic is ruthless currently. The commentators never could identify who was winning till very late in game. I grant you this makes game edge of the seat types but every coin has a flipside.

Hope you appreciate my views as i came to do yours. You cant implemebt it mindlessly. Early game would need some changes.
Go On, Feed Me.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kyphoid returns » November 22, 2014 12:41pm | Report
L0bstz0r wrote:

tbh i dont think this change would do anything. The dota 2 map is NOT designed to give more than 3 heroes/team farm, meanig that even IF every hero starts at ANY later level, there simply are heroes that have higher farm priority. therefor a level and gold gap WILL develop.

That would be in normal circumstances.
I wanna simualte as to HOW MUCH will this difference come out to.

We dont want games where the game is decided at the point first blood happens. Like wise we dont want games where turnaround happens for turnarounds sakes.
There, i summed it up.

I encourage the meta debate but
Hypothetically, if we were to give 6 lvks worth of points to one player in BOTH TEAMS who would they be?

As wulfstan said earth spirit. Care to elaborate? How would you approach this situation?
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Sanvitch » November 22, 2014 12:50pm | Report
Your point about both players having 1 level 6 Hero, and thus are able to defend or fight towers equally as hard - Then it comes down to who drafts better team-fight or aggresion. Like, you are welcome to have Echo Slam to counter my Ravage. I'll just draft stuff like Undying and Ancient Apparition who add to my level 1 prowess, and thus I will still probably win that push.

DOTA's a 5 man game sure, but you have to acknowledge there are games where one player wins it entirely off of the back of there plays.

I do have to point out - Storm Spirit and Timbersaw are heroes who are more than capable of getting solo kills even without something like Disruption. In that situation, if Storm Spirit jumps on two heroes and you disrut one of them, the other will more than likely die. It's a level 6 Storm Spirit, a Hero who can solo equally leveled mids because he'll just jump on them and disable them. Storm Spirit's main problem being that he is easy to gank pre level 6... This change would remove that. Timbersaw can be much the same, considering he has a lot of AOE burst at level 6.

And those aren't even the only snowballing heroes, they are two examples. Almost all magical nukes will be proportionately bigger. Like Skywrath Mage can buy a starting Null Talisman, and then be able to drop Concusive Shot, Ancient Seal, Mystic Flare and Arcane Bolt and solo every single Lv 1 Hero. And yes, he will have enough mana to do that from the start.

You can argue all you want, there's enough Heroes in the pool that benefit from being level 6 from the off, and can then just outright dominate that what you will create is an extremely centralized game-state that rips apart the internal balance of the game, and drastically reduces the amount of heroes that could be viable. I do not see any benefits to this that outweigh these issues, unless you can enlighten me?

And the comeback mechanic hasn't been like that for a while now... Gold wise it's actually fairly negligible till you get to absolutely huge gold differences. And to come back from that you have to play fantastically anyway, or the other team plays idiotically. And if that happens, then you'll probably come back anyway.

Since you just can't have enough Chaos Breaker.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Safecyn » November 22, 2014 1:00pm | Report
Techies

Level 6 at start of game, get Remote Mines, plant in the middle of the enemy safe lane. Carry now gets zero farm. :D

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Nubtrain » November 22, 2014 1:16pm | Report
A lot of heroes, most carry-type heroes and heroes who don't scale that well with more levels (weak level 6) will need considerable buffs. Heroes who only need levels to be strong like Pudge, Disruptor and Tidehunter will be first pick/ban material.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kyphoid returns » November 22, 2014 10:44pm | Report
Sanvitch wrote:

Your point about both players having 1 level 6 Hero, and thus are able to defend or fight towers equally as hard - Then it comes down to who drafts better team-fight or aggresion. Like, you are welcome to have Echo Slam to counter my Ravage. I'll just draft stuff like Undying and Ancient Apparition who add to my level 1 prowess, and thus I will still probably win that push.

DOTA's a 5 man game sure, but you have to acknowledge there are games where one player wins it entirely off of the back of there plays.

I do have to point out - Storm Spirit and Timbersaw are heroes who are more than capable of getting solo kills even without something like Disruption. In that situation, if Storm Spirit jumps on two heroes and you disrut one of them, the other will more than likely die. It's a level 6 Storm Spirit, a Hero who can solo equally leveled mids because he'll just jump on them and disable them. Storm Spirit's main problem being that he is easy to gank pre level 6... This change would remove that. Timbersaw can be much the same, considering he has a lot of AOE burst at level 6.

And those aren't even the only snowballing heroes, they are two examples. Almost all magical nukes will be proportionately bigger. Like Skywrath Mage can buy a starting Null Talisman, and then be able to drop Concusive Shot, Ancient Seal, Mystic Flare and Arcane Bolt and solo every single Lv 1 Hero. And yes, he will have enough mana to do that from the start. [

You can argue all you want, there's enough Heroes in the pool that benefit from being level 6 from the off, and can then just outright dominate that what you will create is an extremely centralized game-state that rips apart the internal balance of the game, and drastically reduces the amount of heroes that could be viable. I do not see any benefits to this that outweigh these issues, unless you can enlighten me?



I am sayingthe same thing! There are enough heroes that benefit out of lvl 6 from the off.
As nubtrain said Pudge Disruptor and the like would be first ban material.
Then dont you think that levelling up heores like this would solve both insanely short and long games? Given the fact that balling heores would be counterbalanced when teams pick /ban?

If you strongly believe that it isnt so, i will respect that . More than the objective of getting a reply i wanted to incite curiosity and i did. Be sure to poll your opinion.

About the comeback thing. You overlook what you said already- a small exchange in gold late game practically ensures comeback! Maybe this doesnt fit withthis thread but we do need to analyze this. So how about a new thread on IS COMEBACK DOTA BEING SPONSORED BY ICEFROG? JUST TO MAKE A GAME INTERESTING, IS IT WARRANTED?
thanks anyways for discussing withme hope i didnt ruffle your feathers.
Go On, Feed Me.

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