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New PA build: Vanguard

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Forum » Theory Crafting » New PA build: Vanguard 8 posts - page 1 of 1
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by ChiChi » May 23, 2016 7:44am | Report
Tim had theorised a new build for PA he finally got the chance to try recently. Here's the result: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2379594812

The idea behind it is to go early Vanguard to help with sustain and tankibility in teamfights, then go Desolator for the extra damage/pushing quicker. After that whatever you need (probably Black King Bar), and later the Abyssal Blade (the reason behing going Vang).

In paper it already seemed good, because people have been doing it with Anti-Mage and the principle behind it is rather similar; both cores blink around and might want to play a more aggressive style with it instead of passively farming, althought this is more true for PA then AM naturally.

Why I think it does work: PA gets extremely tanky, as in, I saw Tim being ganked by heroes like Pudge and Legion Commander and I was convinced he was dead, only to see him turn on them and murder them - without any lifesteal. As for Tim's perspective, I heard him say that the new Stifling Dagger was really good. Indeed, his killing potential was super high ever since the laning stage.

What do you guys think of this? Have any of you tried it already? I would really like to see PA picked more in competitive again, so new ways of playing the hero might be welcomed.

Side note: not applicable to this game, but this build might help ease the late game problem of Silver Edge and Monkey King Bar as well.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Hamstertamer » May 23, 2016 8:07am | Report
Vanguard on Anti-Mage is great because spell shield makes him almost immune to magic damage (even more with 250 HP), and vanguard makes him extremely resistant to physical damage in the early game as well. So you get an ultra-tanky AM that can fight effectively, and is extremely hard to gank while farming.

I really don't see the analogy with PA. Damage block doesn't synergize with a skill that gives 50% evasion in any way. Nor does it synergize with a blink whose only purpose is to snowball off of 4-shotting people.

I have not tried it, but I've seen several PA's in my team try it. Let's just say they weren't 23-1... more like the opposite. PA's critting for 230 damage...what has dota come to.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by ChiChi » May 23, 2016 8:15am | Report
Well AM doesn't have Spell Shield maxed when he buys the Vanguard, if I'm not mistaken. And he doesn't go BKB most of the times, which PA does. So in that regard both have a way to deal with magical damage indeed, which makes physical block interesting. I just told you I saw a game where the PA was tanky, could fight effectively, and was farming alone most of the times and being ganked without dying - that's similar, I think.

You're right about the evasion, it was my concern as well. But the thing is: if you have evasion + damage block, you're even that more survivable. Then, when people get things to counter your evasion, which they will try to do, you still have the damage block and extra HP to help against it - and the idea is ofc to work towards having the Abyssal at some point, which makes you a very dangerous killing machine, regardless of RNGs crits.

I have no idea if you played PA in the new patch (or before that) but why not try it and tell us what you think after seeing it in action?

Edit: Saw your edit now. Did those PAs get damage items? Because I think that's what is missing if you go this build, hence the Desolator. Reliable cheap damage that also translates into more easy push, which is generally a thing PA struggles with, unless she goes Battle Fury, and from what I've seen of that item, it really misses her timing window unless the enemy team is bad.

The gist of this idea is: what build makes the hero viable now, or as close to that as possible? What would you suggest instead?

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Terathiel » May 23, 2016 8:38am | Report
I'm going to equate Vanguard PA to another hero with a similar idea behind getting Vanguard; Faceless Void.

It's basically a given now that Waga void works, and works scarily well. I think I've got a 100% winrate with it, or close to? And that's just my experience.

Anyway, I could literally write an essay on how different builds pertain to how carries play, and timing windows, and all of that juicy theory stuff, but I'll try and keep it short because it's 1:30am down here.

Vanguard and Radiance work on Void because of their synergy with his skill set. Time Walk makes him exceedingly tanky, and Time Dilation and Time Lock excel in drawn-out teamfights because Void is constantly there, backtracking damage, freezing cooldowns and interrupting the flow of combat. It's this utility that makes him such a good lategame carry, and that's not even counting how a Chronosphere can completely swing a fight. So, Vanguard gives Void the raw HP to allow him to get off Time Walk, and Radiance applies yet another effect to disrupt teamfights through the burn and miss chance.

Contrast this with Phantom Assassin - her entire toolkit appears to revolve around jumping on someone, bursting them down in 4 hits and then getting out to repeat again. Although your average lategame PA will be throwing her weight around in a teamfight, her skillset doesn't allow this in the early and midgame. Vanguard, yes, does alleviate her squishiness - but at the cost of all her damage, meaning she can't snowball, meaning she'll get outcarried. Essentially, it's an item that covers her weaknesses, rather than playing into her strengths, and it doesn't even provide utility the way it can on Void. Notably, this is the only reason that Manta PA is rarely a thing even if I do it whenever I'm unfortunate enough to random that useless turd of a hero - Manta doesn't allow you to 3-shot people. And nor does Vanguard.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Timminatorr » May 23, 2016 8:39am | Report
Hamstertamer wrote:

Vanguard on Anti-Mage is great because spell shield makes him almost immune to magic damage (even more with 250 HP), and vanguard makes him extremely resistant to physical damage in the early game as well. So you get an ultra-tanky AM that can fight effectively, and is extremely hard to gank while farming.

I really don't see the analogy with PA. Damage block doesn't synergize with a skill that gives 50% evasion in any way. Nor does it synergize with a blink whose only purpose is to snowball off of 4-shotting people.

I have not tried it, but I've seen several PA's in my team try it. Let's just say they weren't 23-1... more like the opposite. PA's critting for 230 damage...what has dota come to.

The AM spell shield comparison is a way too simple theoretical comparison.
And compared to AM PA is more of an early fighter which the vanguard helps with, while with AM its more compensation to give him some earlygame presence.

Its not like this build is always good but well PA as a whole is situationally ok.
Vanguard is here answer to magic damage and or disables to help her fight early, the other item is BKB but we all know why that isnt great to get too early. Other HP items would be i guess drums or S&Y with sange first, but that not very ideal.
Spells are also cooldown based, which means that if all available nukes are used the only way to kill you is rightclicks, and you are now extremely resistant against that.
And its not like vanguard and evasion have some nagatige overlap with what they give.
Compared to a damage based build the idea of this is that you actually survive to get hits and crits off and outlast opponents.
It might lack some straight up damage but its way less risky and you can keep applying pressure with this, which is what she needs or else people get MKB's and you are way weaker.

This game i also got a casual cloak and a BKB way later, but that all depends on the game ofc.

Weaknesses of this build are i guess farming speed and high low cooldown burst that still kills her. But the game has been slowly but surely moving away from that and more into high tempo carries.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Timminatorr » May 23, 2016 8:49am | Report
Terathiel wrote:

I'm going to equate Vanguard PA to another hero with a similar idea behind getting Vanguard; Faceless Void.

It's basically a given now that Waga void works, and works scarily well. I think I've got a 100% winrate with it, or close to? And that's just my experience.

Anyway, I could literally write an essay on how different builds pertain to how carries play, and timing windows, and all of that juicy theory stuff, but I'll try and keep it short because it's 1:30am down here.

Vanguard and Radiance work on Void because of their synergy with his skill set. Time Walk makes him exceedingly tanky, and Time Dilation and Time Lock excel in drawn-out teamfights because Void is constantly there, backtracking damage, freezing cooldowns and interrupting the flow of combat. It's this utility that makes him such a good lategame carry, and that's not even counting how a Chronosphere can completely swing a fight. So, Vanguard gives Void the raw HP to allow him to get off Time Walk, and Radiance applies yet another effect to disrupt teamfights through the burn and miss chance.

Contrast this with Phantom Assassin - her entire toolkit appears to revolve around jumping on someone, bursting them down in 4 hits and then getting out to repeat again. Although your average lategame PA will be throwing her weight around in a teamfight, her skillset doesn't allow this in the early and midgame. Vanguard, yes, does alleviate her squishiness - but at the cost of all her damage, meaning she can't snowball, meaning she'll get outcarried. Essentially, it's an item that covers her weaknesses, rather than playing into her strengths, and it doesn't even provide utility the way it can on Void. Notably, this is the only reason that Manta PA is rarely a thing even if I do it whenever I'm unfortunate enough to random that useless turd of a hero - Manta doesn't allow you to 3-shot people. And nor does Vanguard.

Well the thing is what gives her early burst? Dominator doesnt, drums doesnt, even early yasha doesnt, and all are close in cost. You need an early item to be able to do anything, early deso isnt gonna cut it.
Battlefury? Even AM is moving away from always batlefury, so battlefury PA certainly isnt the thing, and it was never super reliable.
You can rush a BKB i guess buuut there are many counters for that now and getting it first completely seals you in doing work with its uses and gimps your raw damage too.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by ChiChi » May 23, 2016 9:42am | Report
Terathiel wrote:

Contrast this with Phantom Assassin - her entire toolkit appears to revolve around jumping on someone, bursting them down in 4 hits and then getting out to repeat again. Although your average lategame PA will be throwing her weight around in a teamfight, her skillset doesn't allow this in the early and midgame. Vanguard, yes, does alleviate her squishiness - but at the cost of all her damage, meaning she can't snowball, meaning she'll get outcarried. Essentially, it's an item that covers her weaknesses, rather than playing into her strengths, and it doesn't even provide utility the way it can on Void. Notably, this is the only reason that Manta PA is rarely a thing even if I do it whenever I'm unfortunate enough to random that useless turd of a hero - Manta doesn't allow you to 3-shot people. And nor does Vanguard.


But this is exactly the reason why I liked Vanguard into Desolator, because it allows you to do exactly that: jump in, burst, get out rinse and repeat. If you don't burst that enemy down you can still stick around to go in again, and if you get counter-attacked by the teammates your chances of surviving are better. You say it alleviates at cost of her damage: but what item can you get at this point in time that gives her that damage? If you go straight up into something like the deso, you're more reliable than ever on her crit to happen quick enough, because you're a squish. Like Tim said, same is true for items like a Yasha. If you stay out of fights to farm a deso and a Helm or a BKB, you miss the hero timing a bit, because you get outcarried by other cores that farm faster and better.

Manta Style to me makes way less sense, because you're giving her stats and weak ilusions that also have no synergy whatsoever with the hero, whereas with Vanguard you get HP and Damage Block that will be transformed into abyssal later. Note that we're basically saying you get two items that aren't that expensive to be allowed to snowball to your peak super quick, since with these and just a BKB you're very dangerous - as we could see this game. Then you get more damage however you want (in this game Tim went MKB), then the final transition into Abyssal is also smooth. To this day, I haven't seen a build that seems more stable and reliable to me.

Tim, I didn't really understand the Assault Cuirass though?

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Wulfstan » May 23, 2016 12:48pm | Report
Hamstertamer wrote:

Vanguard on Anti-Mage is great because spell shield makes him almost immune to magic damage (even more with 250 HP), and vanguard makes him extremely resistant to physical damage in the early game as well. So you get an ultra-tanky AM that can fight effectively, and is extremely hard to gank while farming.

I really don't see the analogy with PA. Damage block doesn't synergize with a skill that gives 50% evasion in any way. Nor does it synergize with a blink whose only purpose is to snowball off of 4-shotting people.

I have not tried it, but I've seen several PA's in my team try it. Let's just say they weren't 23-1... more like the opposite. PA's critting for 230 damage...what has dota come to.


This only means PA gets to be a constant damage dealing hero, instead of the burst her crit provides. It's still there for later, but this allows her to come fighting earlier with just an aquilla and Vanguard. The hit they don't miss gets reduced, and the hit they miss, well they just miss. Chances that neither procs on one hit are quite low.


I'd honestly buy Vanguard while it is effective versus as a component of Abyssal Blade. That's what it basically equates to. Your side note doesn't work here, being granted true strike on PA totally ***** on the hero, because it also reduces her damage.


Bloodthorn is the same. These new ways of gaining true strike for the entire team might just be stronger than a singular Monkey King Bar, even if they are temporary. If deployed at the right time, they are devastating.

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