Post Whatever You Want (and Stop Posting Crap on Other Threads)

Except for: Metamorphosis, Tombstone, Shallow Grave, Repel, Black King Bar, Refresher Orb, Bloodstone, and all of Invoker's spells.

That idea, unfortunately, won't make it into the game. :(

Because it's clearly Terrorblade that becomes OP with that change. Being able to use Metamorphosis twice in a fight when the uptime of the skill is clearly made to last enough for an entire fight and the aura nature of the skill already makes it persist through death in the first place. And a tiny bit more illusions.

Invoker, on the other hand, is perfectly fair and balanced with this change. Nothing wrong with QUADRUPLE EVERYTHING.

...Nothing at all.

And the OSFrog award goes to...KCAF.

Typical dota fire: a private joke with Bunkan (we usually list every hero on our hate list when we lose) and it degenerates into what's op and needs nerfing, even in one of the patches that everyone is considering one of the most balanced xD

As for Spectre, best ones I've seen so far do indeed have Diffusal Blade (EE comes to mind), and people aren't countering her with Silver Edge because no, it's not op - months after we would think that's not even funny to say anymore - and it's still a very expensive item with a sole purpose that doesn't necessarily fit every hero build. And you can see this in higher levels, where they actually know what they are doing. All items also have a timing window, like the heroes themselves, it can be like buying an Orchid Malevolence for initiation when everyone on the enemy team already has BKBs running: just not worth it. Example: you break her, she still haunts with her Radiance on and runs away, and the rest of her team kills everyone because now they have vision and even some degree of damage coming out even of a silver edged Spectre haunt. Nice useless break.

This doesn't mean I don't think Silver Edge is a good item, it is. It's just as good as other items, having a specific timing window and not always fitting the hero build or being the best/game break solution against heroes with passives.

So yea, no reason to mess with the hero or the item. Invoker might be a bit too strong indeed, because of his abysmal pick/win rate, but I think that's actually do to the fact that he is so flexible, and this meta rewards flexibility like never before. Him and Earth Spirit will most probably see some minor changes in the future though.

Silver Edge has a timing window?

Um...what?

First time I ever saw that argument.

It's not like you can rush the item on quite a number of cores, or that it's a good late game item on about 3/4 of cores, or that you can buy it as a late game item on pretty much any ranged support to deal with passives and reduce damage output by 40%...

Orchid Malevolence has a timing window because it gets easily dispelled by like 8 items in the game, so the item drops off like a brick in the ocean after 25 minutes. Silver edge has no counters whatsoever, since not even BKB removes it. So it's good at absolutely any stage of the game.

If I'm not mistaken Sanvitch just said the same thing with other words, regarding how this item isn't countered by dispells, but by the fact that you either buy it too late (Skadi Spectre doesn't care) or if you buy it early you might need other things more, if you can't properly initiate with it. So no, I don't agree you can always rush it, I do agree it's a good late game item on many cores but they are still not buying it that much (for a good reason or just because they are stupid?) and ranged supports buying it must be a joke you made, or you've been playing very interesting rich supports games that I'm unware of. Anything else I could say to this regard apparently falls mute on you, since you insist on seeing it as the bane of all items, regardless of the fact that we just had a Major that proves otherwhise.

If you buy the item early, you have to get stuff done with it to get value from it. You need to get pick-offs, you need to make space with it, which is easier said than done. It doesn't especially increase your farming ability, so to keep your item progression up you have to get value from it.

If you buy the item late, the enemy team will have utility items up that make taking advantage of the timing window hard. Because there are a lot of options available in the late game that help a hero survive the timing window; Especially an innately tanky one like Spectre.

That's presumably what Chichi meant by timing window. It being purchasable on supports is true, but unlikely unless you get rich supports or super long games, because other utility is more valuable. Even equally expensive pieces like Shiva's or Hex.

The lack of Silver's Edge in the Major might not just be because of the item not be as good as we are infering, but because people still don't realise the change. It was such a counter-intuitive change after all.

Skadi Spectre actually cares the most because she is way more reliant on Dispersion than Urn-Drum-Diffusal Spectre. The latter barely cares about Silver Edge alone because she really does other things. This doesn't mean that Silver is balanced. Not being dispellable by anything in the game while cutting the enemy pos 1/2 damage output to 60% minimum(the rest depends on passives like Mortal Strike, it may also cut survivability like in case of Spectre, Bristleback or Phantom Assassin). Against some heroes with passives it's basically a Hex... except for the fact that hex is dispelled with at least 2 things in the game(probably more), and one of those costs 4k gold. And Vyse pretty much only gives you the hex, it's stats are mediocre at best, while Silver gives you a ****ton of benefits other than break.

In case you don't believe Silver makes some heroes with passives borderline unplayable, go to Dotobuff->Meta->Sort by winrate in 5k and see who is in the very bottom of the table :) (also make sure to visit the 10th least winning hero, she must feel very lonely there in the trashcan where she has been put big part thanks to Silver).

Also how does Major even prove anything if out of 20 most picked heroes there only 2 actually could be really screwed with Silver and those were Zeus and Juggernaut(Gyro and Ench to some extent too)?

Im gone for some time and suddenly Janitsu is mod WutFace

It was inevitable

Well yes, you buy it early on fighting heroes and later on farming heroes. You need to time it right if that's your point. But it's still an item that's effective at any stage of the game, so "timing window" is not really a good word for it. The timing of the item depends on your hero and how you intend to play him, not on the item itself.



Well actually, for me there are games when Silver Edge is better than Scythe of Vyse on a support. In a 60-70 minute game where you usually have enough gold to get a sheep on your supports, I think that buying a silver edge instead can be better when facing passives.

- Sheep : 3.5 second of hard disable. No effect on passives. Can be purged by lotus and diffu.
- Silver : 5 seconds of passive removal and 40% damage reduction. Cannot be purged by any item. Can also be used to initiate like dagger.

Well and Shiva's Guard for me is not a late game item, it's a midgame teamfight item that doesn't scale that well, so it's not directly comparable. Besides shivas is almost exclusively for position 3 initiators and supports have no reason to ever buy it.

Spectre is only tanky because Dispersion, just like Bristleback. Without their passive, they are heroes with mediocre strength gain and are much less survivable.

Besides, surviving 5 seconds of Silver Edge is much harder than surviving 3.5 seconds of Hex. 5 seconds in a late game situation...that's gamebreaking as hell. It's the longest single target disable in the game right now.

That's essentially the whole point : against the right heroes, Silver is kind of an unpurgeable 5 second hex. Except that the item gives really good carry stats while sheep is only mana regen and nothing else.

Look at Phantom Assassin with no crit, no evasion, and 40% damage cut. If you include the crit, that PA deals only 39% of her normal damage, and no longer has evasion. How is this not as bad, if not worse, than getting Hexed for 5 seconds?



I can only agree 100%. But then...if pub players have understood this for a few months (just look at the 5K+ winrates Dimonychan posted - don't forget Troll btw) and not competitive players...WTF?