Lich Undying Duo Offlane.

Well if you don't want to dive with an Undying, why would you pick him as a Lich partner? Like, Lich will let almost any offlaner have a better time in lane than he should do otherwise, so why not pick one of the greedier ones to take advantage of that in place of one of the aggressive ones?

When you have one of the highest kill potential offlaners, who excels at diving, picking a passive hero with the intention of pulling the lane back so you never need to dive sounds counter-intuitive, when Undying usually wins lanes through kills anyway. Like I guess pulling them closer to you is fine, but as you said, the ability to pull off-sets it unless you get a good sentry placement.


I agree with Tim that support Undying with core Jakiro is a disgusting lane. Like, once the lane hits around level 3 it's such a hard lane to play against, and by 5-7 it becomes almost unplayable unless you got early kills against it, or your lane is super strong. Liquid Fire spam being obnoxious without Decay as it is.

When playing against these kind of cancer dual lanes I always like picking a greedy jungler that can gank, e.g Legion Commander, Nature's Prophet, Bloodseeker...sometimes I even get away with Doom.

These dual lanes control the lane but have no way to control the jungle. So you can just AFK farm for 6 minutes, get level 6, and the gank non-stop to shut them down.

Going for aggressive dual lanes like this is really an all-in strat. Any kind of ganker can shut it down easily...for me this publord strat is mainly reliant on pubs being unable to call for ganks.

Once you have a level 6 hero who can gank the safe lane at anytime and dewards any wards they might have if they back off, lane won, gege wepe.

What I like the most about this way of playing is that you really get a jungler that makes space instead of taking space and pretty much automatically wins your safe lane.

the main reason this works in pubs is because players dont cut their losses, leave one hero who catches up later and get more out of other lanes.
low pubs cant coordinate that kind of stuff, and even if they move 3 heroes to the other lane, it doesnt guarantee that they do well and shut down their lane.

thats why i like the jakiro lane, a jakiro with farm backed up by undying stays relevant for very long, an undying backed up by a lich less so.

How are aggressive dual lanes like these all in? Like, I am very curious about this statement, because it seems counter-intuitive to the nature of the dual lane?

Like, the whole thing about strong dual lanes is that you aren't commiting overly heavily with heroes to the extent where if you don't pull it off your laning stage is a disaster unlike aggro tri's (Because you have to get kills in aggro tri's to ensure your supports don't fall behind). It still allows for rotations by your other support, for stacking, for pulling ect. So you don't comprimise that much comparatively.

Likewise it's not true that any ganker shuts this down, because Undying both excels at aggression, and punishes it. If you commit to killing him, he's probably going to take a hero or two with him, and that is fully worth it for the Undying and partner in most situations.

I do like the idea of a jungler to work against this (Partially because you are right, they don't have great control of the jungle, and partially to offset the gold deficit), but I'd rather see something like Chen or Enchantress who can apply more pressure to the other lanes earlier on (Mostly mid), rather than something that has to be pretty passive for the first few minutes. Because that 6 minutes is a long time to only have two heroes against a lane that is just objectively stronger than yours in 90% of situations. (It's arguably a dual lane stronger than your 3 heroes in a lot of cases).

I just worry that picking a jungler is still too greedy against something like this. Admittedly the Lich - Undying ones is weak by the standards of them, and basically only a pub-strat but still. These dual lanes are viable things even in competitive levels of play. They are just really strong lanes that can get a lot of **** done without being too all in.

For that purpose, Crystal Maiden + Undying is better, because CM can help with the mana, has a slow and a stun. That means you can kill even the likes of Anti Mage and such (has happened to me many times, yeah). You can be extremely aggressive, and if the lane is too pushed out CM can rotate to help in other lanes constantly.

Bane Mirana anyone?

That's pretty much how lane dominators work : they need to dominate their lane because it's their only way to farm, the hero needs to be at an advantage to be effective, and they have to way to come back.

Like, if Viper gets ganked mid and feeds 3 kills...what can he do? Nothing : he's pretty much out of the game since the hero needs to be ahead for his skillset to work ( Nethertoxin especially, but Corrosive Skin also requires him to be tanky to outlast his opponents). So generally every lane dominator is all-in pick and does nothing from behind.



Actually, going dual offlane with lane dominators is even more all-in than running an aggro trilane.

In an aggro trilane, you have a support duo that can rotate and roam. If you decide that the enemy safe lane is too strong, well you can e.g leave your Bristleback solo the lane and sap XP while your Crystal Maiden and Lion can simply smoke gank mid.

But...what does Lich do outside of a lane? What does Undying do outside of a lane? What does Silencer, Viper or something do if they're not laning? Nothing. So they have to win the lane to get anything done.



Okay, I'll concede that Undying is pretty ******** in this patch (literally the equivalent of Broodmother with spiderlings immune to AOE damage, wtf volvo), so sure he can turn around and stuff.

I just hope the Tombstone HP has been nerfed enough so you can actually right-click the tomb at this stage before dying :)



But, but... Dooming Undying is sooo satisfying...not to mention you just pressed the no ******** button :)

Sure Chen and Ench work but they're just not that good pub heroes in general outside of 5-stacks. Maybe Bambi now is semi-decent...still.
But sure...if you want to be a Chen picker be my guest :)

Don't pick Chen in pubs EVER. Your mid will probably start all "wtf are you doing in my lane, go jungle", when you try to gank.

If you go strong dual lane, have a backup plan. In case of Viper, for instance, I discovered he's pretty good with Winter Wyvern as a dual lane, since most people don't expect the early harassment and if you do things right, you have another support that can rootate discretly for a bit to gank other lanes, leaving the Viper safely alone.

I think Lich is better to the safe-lane-don't-ever-leave-me kinda of partner, such as Faceless Void, to ensure he doesn't die and get all the last hits possible. Lich and Undying really seem meh, let Undying alone and he can still do the same "rektage", or instead pick him with someone who can do the mad diving you talked about/rootate in case of inexistent lane competition.

I also find Bane and Mirana not that op as a dual lane, since they're both pretty squishy and reliant on their skill sequence and if you mess with their escapes (silences come to mind) it's bye bye both.

Report noob Chen, 10 minutes jungling still no Hand of Midas :)

Bane + Mirana...for me that's an Abaddon instapick. Fckin tryhards, get rekt.

That's a poor generalisation, because Viper has no ability to flash farm, or catch-up, or bring any utility. Essentially every other typical lane dominator (Except OD I guess) has an ability to do at least one of these three things, which makes them slightly less all in.

Particularly Undying, because that hero has always had two real timing windows, his laning stage, and the start of the mid-game where lv4 Tombstone is crazy strong. Even if you miss the first, you can abuse the second to catch-up (Because you use the time to force down towers and win fights, and thus catch up)

But I assume you are directing this comment against the Lich component of the laen, in which case I can agree with you. It is certainty not true of all of these kinds of dual lanes, and I was asking about your general statement which seemed to imply all of these kinds of lanes are greedy, and greedier than aggro tri's.

Because, an aggro dual lane is less all in theory, simply because even if you have to commit to keeping two heroes there (The support can still ancient stack to make use of his time ect ect), because the other support can make **** happen without sacking one of your cores (As your rotation of the two supports from an aggro tri would), whilst you are applying enough active pressure to the lane to keep one support there permanently in essence. Even if he can stack and pull, he can't rotate as freely, because there is always that pressure on the lane.

And I mentioned Chen and Enchantress because bad pub heroes sure, but they are still the optimal things you'd have in response to this kind of lane, because they are the only junglers who can pressure lanes without impeding there farm rate, due to Harpies and Wildwings.

Also Bane - Mirana is a better rotating support duo than dual lane. Because with that kind of free kill potential, it makes sense to do it to as many lanes as possible.