A Janna Bot turned Crystal Maiden

I still don't understand where you're coming from. In DotA, you need to manage your mana. In LoL, you can consistently use spells without worry of going OOM. There are more heals built into champions. There is only one gank location on the river. Placing a ward on it completely makes the jungler a non-factor (unless of course it's Nocturne or a champ with invisibility). The meta-game is completely stable and there is little variation in what happens, leading to gameplay that gives you little choice in strategy. There is always one response to a problem.

Just because junglers are needed in LoL does not make the game harder, it's just a different meta.

And map awareness is just as important in DotA, if not more so because Rosh is a bigger factor. Ganking is much more flexible in DotA, meaning lanes must always be on their toes as opposed to putting a ward in river then being completely safe from gank. Rune control adds to this.

I'm sorry but you really don't know what you're talking about. I'd not have responded to that if it wasn't for the parts in bold...

In LoL, there are LOADS of gank locations. Tri-brush, river, from the lane itself with "ninja ganks" (push the lane hard, jungler sneaks in, don't push any more). Behind the lane, over the wall, or just generally from behind the minion wave.

Nocturne's ult range at level 1 is pitiful (only about double his Q range at most), and at level 11 you're barely ganking lanes.

The fact you can use loads of spells makes it harder, in my opinion. There's much more action on lane, and you have to dodge SO much more stuff in lane whilst still getting farm (especially true against mids like Cass and Karthus' Qs). Just sitting in a lane farming all laning phase where you can't really use much mana doesn't take much skill. The denying and last hitting does, of course, but there isn't anything else to watch out for.

Putting wards into the river also isn't something that completely counters you. For one, you can't start with wards unless you're a support. Secondly, wards last half the time they do in DotA and as such you can't keep them up all the time.

It's funny you mention the metagame is 'completely stable'. Moscow Five appeared recently on the LoL scene with a bang, about 2 tournaments ago they revolutionised the metagame with a metagame COMPLETELY based on jungle domination. In fact, many new metagames emerge and have emerged, especially recently. Examples include - Balls deep counter jungling, bruiser top, roaming support, roamer, double AP, AD mid (which was introduced recently), split push, AoE team fight heavy, one target will die teams (these were so popular around Dreamhack), Dyrus meta (4 bruisers and 1 hypercarry).

The fact jungling is a requirement in LoL does not make it harder, no. The fact ganks are far more something to watch out for, and the fact ganks are far more devastating (especially early) makes it harder. If lanes do not watch out for ganks then they die. In DotA there isn't anywhere near as many ganks, you don't have to control your buffs (and buffs are FAR more important than runes, in any case). Wards also have a smaller range, and if you are caught pushed to the tower, even if a jungler is spotted by a ward, you can still be ganked from the river entrance by anybody with a ranged CC or gap closer (or both).

Regarding map awareness in DotA vs LoL -
Roshan spawns every 10 minutes. Dragon spawns every 5, in LoL, and gives almost the same global gold, even though gold is worth more in LoL, Baron spawns every 8 and gives you a HUGE stat boost and more global gold than Roshan. Having that as your only justification is foolish. Of course, there's Aegis as well, but I'd rank the Baron buff higher than Aegis in most situations (in a non-Dyrus meta team).

The absence of brush makes ganking far more stable in DotA. There is no such thing as a 'ninja gank', and basically all you do is come from one angle or another and use skills on them, hoping they die.

Baron actually spawns every 7 minutes. The Red Buff Lizard and Blue Buff Golem spawn every 5, with the Dragon/Drake in between, spawning every 6 minutes.

That's my involvement on this argument which seems to have taken over my introduction thread completely now. ;)

Again, ganks are much more of a factor is DotA. I'm not sure what skill level you play in, but you can have roaming tankers, players consistently leaving lane to gank, your mid being a designated gander and a jungler. Again, there are far more opportunities to gank in DotA. And a river ward in LoL really does prevent most conventional ganks against you.

The reason ganks in dota are more of a factor would probably be because the tower isn't really a safe zone. In LoL the tower hits you for like 3x more, in DotA there isn't much keeping you safe besides good map awareness.

And if you say there is no threat in the dota laning phase then you're clearly mistaken. Spells are more potent, along with disables.

Xenasis,

DotA is far more action included than LoL (****ing meta farm for 45 mins and 1-2 team fights end the ****ing ****ty boring game, really interesting to watch tournaments indeed!). DotA's aggressively gameplay has been shown even more now when pushing is more popular/useful than turtling meta. Which shows in little team fights all the time, Tobi screaming of course.

In LoL there are MAXIMUM of 10 kills in a pro match which lasts for 40-60 minutes.

In DotA there can be even 1-2 kills per minute.

LoL's meta been the same for now, let me think, almost a year. I miss the roaming meta, it was actually fun/action included. But hey riot nerfs the ****ing roamers...

Been playing LoL for a long time. And I think im still in 1600-1700 elo. Easy game is easy.

Also dotas lanes are more aggressive, you can die more easily, and in dota there is more ganks.

I thought this was an introduction thread?

@Whated: You are wrong.
You get just as many team fights in LoL as dota. Each champion can get at least 10 kills each in a decent match. Every game has nerfs to it, so will Dota 2 especially when it releases, it really isn't that big of a deal, you learn to deal with it. Again, in LoL most of the scores for k/d/a's are higher than dota 2.

@Iratesniper You obviously didn't watch not even a single game in last pro tournament play. Meh, I was talking about comp scene not something **** ranked/normal.

Please note - TL;DR version is last two paragraphs.



Of course you have a lot of ganks in DotA. They are nowhere near as much of a factor as they are in LoL for some reasons. Firstly, there is absolutely no reason you'd ever not realize somebody is missing. You see roaming mids and roaming ganking heroes, of course. The moment a Tidehunter is missing, however, your first guess isn't "Oh, they must have a jungle Tidehunter". Same with mid lane heroes missing when they've clearly not gone back to base. Secondly, mid lane does not and can not (if it wants to win the lane) gank early on. Not to mention the abnormality of it and obviousness of ganking, you won't see ganks from mid until level 4ish.

Towers are, of course, death in LoL in a lot of circumstances. Usually, a well executed gank will be a free kill though, especially with a ganking oriented jungler such as Rammus, Maokai, Shaco, etc.

Wards are a point, but absolutely nobody starts with a ward unless it's bot lane, and they usually use them to stop jungle invasions, and won't immediately put them down. This leaves a lot of opportunity for early ganking. Mid lane is often only warded one one side (and good players will stick to that side), top is only warded when they go back, but top laners will stay in lane for a great while (and even then only expend one or two on the tribrush and the river), and bot lane is very easily dove. I don't even see how this argument is relevant as there are wards in DotA too, and these ensure the fact a lot of action happens, as people feel safe and you gank from elsewhere. Keeping, for example, mid lane warded from 5-35 minutes in the game would cost your mid laner 1500 gold (assuming none are destroyed). You would, simply, not win the game if you did that.

You also ignore the fact that junglers will, 90% of the time (at a high level of play), purchase an Oracle's at some point.

I NEVER said there was no threat in the DotA laning phase, I'd say there was more in hero-to-hero combat. My point was, in LoL, you have to by far more diligent to dodge, say, Cass Qs every 3s or so than just avoiding letting somebody get close to you.



Firstly, there's no need for such homophobic slurs and such aggression. There's no need to scream about something.

I really hope you're joking.

For one - if anything, I prefer DotA to LoL, and I'm about 1.9k-2k Elo in LoL. I'm still learning DotA, of course, I've only had about 110 games (I know it isn't a lot, but alas) and not seen all too many competitive games compared to LoL games (though I will say they are definitely more exciting (and I've seen pretty much every LoL tournament from Dreamhack onwards), though that isn't the argument at hand now, is it?) but I grasp it relatively well. For two, I never said LoL took more skill, I said they require different skills, one isn't harder than the other, and the only reason more casual players played LoL is because it's far more accessible.

There's usually the same amount of kills either side on both games. Kills can happen on any time on either.

If you think the meta has been static in LoL you've not been keeping up with it. I mentioned the multitude of metagames in my post above. Splitpushing is a bigger deal in DotA, I'll agree. That does not mean it takes more skill, however, which is the argument at hand. Might I also add - the metagame has been riled almost in its entirety with the dawn of Moscow Five, whose aggressive counter jungling forces action to happen.

You don't die as easily in DotA at all. In a team fight, you definitely do, but in laning, you don't. Take mid lane, for example, you can have a bottle (and sometimes even have a permanent courier ***** to refill it), regeneration runes, tangos, salves, and as such to heal you back up again. You get hurt more but heal more, and rarely will people let themselves be in a situation where Lina can one burst them or something if they're not ******ed.

The roaming meta was NOT nerfed. Evelynn was nerfed, but it has been picking up popularity again (such as M5's GosuPepper with his roaming supports (even when he plays Soraka), and he made the game in the last tournament they played where he roamed the whole match with their Lee and Urgot went 2v1 bot lane).




I'd like to politely ask a moderator for this thread's closure. He has introduced himself already, this has turned into too much of an anger fueled debate. Many apologies for both my actions and starting said argument, I forgot how sensitive this topic can be online - my folly was fooling myself into thinking perhaps it could exist without such charged discussion.

And to you, William, I apologize most of all, for derailing your thread. I hope I don't come off as some overzealous argumentative ******* because I think I did, but nonetheless, I like writing whatever, it's a shame I found a need to do it in your thread.

Atlas please moderate this instead of blowing it up further.