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Help with early game lane problems?

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Forum » New Player Help » Help with early game lane problems? 11 posts - page 1 of 2
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by RS Ramza » February 17, 2015 5:53pm | Report
Hi guys, I will try and keep it brief :)

I played a good bit of LoL but I switched to Dota some time ago because I played it before and think it is a better game. Early game in nearly every game I am having the same issues. I play PA every game in the offlane and I enjoy the hero and the carry role. Below are some issues I am having;

1. When the first wave comes, Enemy laners seem to just ignore CS and try and dive/all in me level 1 and when they have a stun or disable they are almost always able to kill me, or push me out of lane, denying me XP and gold. Early game I am squishy and I always panic and just ran back to tower, taking a lot of damage. Is there any way around this? They always seem to win the trade, I feel powerless. I try and stay behind creeps or on the creep line, but even while taking my creeps aggro, they always seem to come out on top.

2. My enemy laners AA creeps hard, pushing the lane toward me, and causing me to have less creeps than them. This results in 2 things, they are able to harass me/out trade me because of the creep imbalance, and the wave pushes to my tower, where it's impossible to last hit at low levels under turret, esp with PA. Every game they do it, and when I try to deny my creeps or kill those to make the wave more even, I end up getting nuked by the enemy heroes and dying, it's frustrating. Any ideas?

3. My friendly laner doesn't make matters easier, they always AA the lane mindlessly. I try to tell them, calmly, that this is a bad thing to do. I end up missing creeps because of it (I time my last hits using my current creeps damage to time it, but when my laner starts throwing in their AAs it really throws off the timing and can deny both of us farm), and our wave pushes up. It's just so frustrating when I am ready to last hit a creep, then my laner will AA it, putting it so low that it dies to the next minion attack, causing both of us to miss it.

4. Where am I safe? I try to stand in my creeps, or behind/on the line. Whenever I try to extend for a creep, I take damage/nukes off enemy laners, and even though this causes them to pull aggro, they still out trade me when I run away. This also causes me to get pushed udner turret and denies me xp.

Early game I just want to last hit in peace xD!!!

But really, I am sick of level 1 all ins, level 1 cheese, and my laner feeding and having poor creep/wave mechanics, thus costing us last hits and stuff. I never feel safe in lane, I always get really out traded and have to farm safe with my dagger, which can suck. Has anyone any tips? I can try and record a video to show what I mean, but this is the best I can do

RS Ramza

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by I Have Layers » February 17, 2015 5:58pm | Report
I'm a bit of skrub meself, but I believe that amongst experienced PA players, it is common knowledge that you stay back and use dagger to lasthit. (need confirmation from somebody like Smuggels) Along with that, take advantage of their pushing. It's basically free farm. The tower attacks the creeps, and you get the lasthit.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Smuggels » February 17, 2015 6:07pm | Report
well i could explain this easily but ill try and help with most.

dont pick PA and go offlane.. u need safelane.

but besides the point.

positioning : do they run past the creep wave? if yes... then there attack pattern is predictable as soon as they start taking creep aggro then just back off.
at level 1: unless ur up against an aggro trilane its nearly impossible for them to kill you level 1 maybe if they have 2 stuns it could get close but you have a three ways to escape. skill blink and blink back to ur lane partner or to creeps
skill evasion and ur sweet.
skill dagger and you can just run away.
dont trade as PA... focus on farm. if u feel unsafe near the creepwave use your dagger to last hit.
dont panic just clmly back off towards the tower if they dive u under tower then hey free kill, use dagger and watch them die.

thats a good thing and a bad thing. it means ur going to get guaranteed xp and safe farm (not as much due to tower but enough) also ur going to be very safe if they do so. if they AA lane then wait till it appraches tower then sit between the creeps and them they will be forced out of xp range and u will gain a tower advantage. regen. buy som regen if u r up against a spammy laner. tangoes and salve. again. use dagger to last hit.

3.just repeat it and use dagger to last hit.

4. pushed under tower? u get xp even more then? or do you mean under there tower? clarify this.

try other heroes as well man. ogre magi is fun and easy to use. and tanky and can trade nicely.
PA is a hard carry and in what i think is where u are (low level pubs) your not goign to get supports so hey why not do it ur self and have fun



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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Hamstertamer » February 17, 2015 11:13pm | Report
So, you are playing with noobs, and this is a bad thing. But you are also playing AGAINST noobs, and that's a really, really good thing. So essentially you need to take advantage of the enemy players playing horribly without getting taken down by your teammates playing horribly. This is actually not that hard to do, here's a few tips on that.

1) If you are playing at the level where people autoattack creeps, there is NO WAY, I repeat NO WAY IN HELL that any combination of heroes can kill you in lane at level 1. If they ignore CS and go aggressive on you at level 1, what you need to to is *kite them* and *let your creeps attack them*. By kite them I mean stay out of the range at which they can damage you. If it's a melee hero just walk away from him, if it's a ranged hero walk away from his attack range. As long as they're going aggressive your creeps are damaging them and at level 1 they hit HARD. Even a lane with 2 stuns doesn't have enough damage to kill a hero at level 1, and that's assuming they can coordinate stuns, which at that level they can't. They can only lose this trade because they're now out of mana and they'll have lost a lot of HP from your creeps. A lot of heroes only have mana for one stun (e.g Sven, Wraith King...) and once they're out of mana they can't do anything in this lane anymore. So just drink your Healing Salve and you're back in the lane against half HP enemies who are now out of mana. You won the trade.

2) If the enemy laners AA the creeps, they are noobs because they're doing you a huge favor, especially if you're in the offlane. There are two reasons why you should never AA the creeps. The first is because you can't get last hits if you do that. The second is because it pushes the lane and pushing *always gives an advantage to the enemy lane*. Gives an advantage because it lets you stand in a safe place close to your tower while the enemy heroes are in a completely un-safe place far away from theirs.
You shouldn't be worried about getting harassed because of creep imbalance, this is never going to happen if you keep good positioning. If there's a creep imbalance you need to *back off* and fall back to your creep wave or tower.
Indeed getting last hits under tower can be a bit hard but not with PA because she has Stifling Dagger to last hit.
Essentially, if the enemy is pushing the lane, back off until you are next to your creeps or your tower. And if the enemy heroes are still trying to harass you in tower range, go kill them. If you are under your tower, enemy heroes can't trade with you because if they do they'll draw the aggro from the tower, so you can essentially right-click them for free and they can't do anything about it.
Back off until they make the mistake of diving too far, and when they do just kill them.

3)There's no solution to that, you can't prevent your teammates from being noobs. You can only live with it.
Tell them nicely to please stop autoattacking and explain why. Tell them again if needed. If they insist that they're doing the right thing or tell you to screw off use the mute button. If they say anything offensive use the report button.
Luckily you're playing Phantom Assassin. So last hit your creeps with Stifling Dagger and you'll always get your farm despite your lane partner being a noob. Buy a Clarity or a Ring of Basilius so that you don't run out of mana from spamming daggers.
Your teammates being that bad is balanced out by the enemy players being just as bad and easy to take advantage of (see point 2)

4)Almost every stun in this game has about a 500-600 cast range, about the attack range of a ranged hero. Generally you are entirely safe if you're staying farther than this from every enemy hero. In lane you're safe if you're standing about next to your ranged creep.
If you come forward to get last hits as a melee hero, you'll get harassed. That's normal. A lane with ranged heroes will always out-harass a lane with melee heroes.
Normally you have a ranged support who can harass back when that happens. But you probably don't have a support, right? You're laning with another melee carry who is autoattacking creeps and being usleess in lane? So use Stifling Dagger to last hit creeps from afar and you're fine. Dagger is meant to be used for last-hitting.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by FleetAU » February 17, 2015 11:17pm | Report
my build for pa is to get a ring of protection, clarity, tangos, and a salve. You build the ring into bassy, grab a medallion and boots next. This allows you to get on average 3/4 last hits per wave while taking no harass, and with some practise its almost impossible to miss last hits with the high dagger damage.

having said that pa is a stupid rng hero you should only play if you can crit dagger and hit 6 times in a row and miss 12 attacks in a row (hello last ranked game)
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Sando » February 18, 2015 5:46am | Report
Think everybody else has covered the major points here:

- PA isn't a great offlaner. If you get pushed out of safelane by a stupid pick, she can just about work there solo by using Dagger to last hit (very low mana cost). Don't try to compete in melee range.

- Without a sensibly placed partner (unlikely at this level) you can't blink strike back to them to escape.

- Pickup an early point in Blur after your dagger, will help reduce harassment.

- When creeps are pushing towards your tower, be within range to draw their aggro without actually being hit, provided the enemy isn't in range to dive you. Otherwise, wait until they attack the tower, then go within 500 range and throw a dagger to last hit one, this should draw the rest of them to you. Pull them onto your creep wave between the towers and last hit as normal.

- Don't be afraid to buy more consumables if you run out, you can get loads of last hits from dagger with a single Clarity, and you need to keep your health topped up in case you get dived.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by RS Ramza » February 18, 2015 12:05pm | Report
Thanks a lot for all the replies they really help, +rep given to all! :) I recorded my first game today and I think it showcases the problems I'm having better than a text post. Luckily I had a support who was actually doing his job and not mindlessly AAing creeps, which helped! Altho, my enemy laners did AA a lot and push us under turret which was fine (almost cost the axe his life early game, think I could have blinked onto him and killed him?). Anyway, my last hitting needs work, but I think with the tower hitting creeps and the like, I miss a lot under turret. But here you can see the issues which I mentioned early game. No need to watch the whole video, the first 5-6 mins or so is perfect.

I picked up a nice double kill early when our enemy laners misplayed hard, and then another one shortly after, so I pretty much won the lane. But early game is so sloppy for me, I really need help to even it out because as a carry I can't afford to be missing creeps and playing so unevenly.
What could I have done better?

Anyone who flicks through my video and offers any criticism, I love you xD

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Wulfstan » February 18, 2015 2:55pm | Report
as a carry I can't afford to be missing creeps

Make private lobbies. Play 10 minutes with the hero of your choice. Aim for at least 50 CS in the first 10 minutes of the game.

Looking over the vid right now. Will give answers in like 10 mins.

Beggining - While Stout Shield is really good, I usually buy a Ring of Protection on her just so I can upgrade it on the lane into a Ring of Basilius. Since Stifling Dagger has such a low mana cost, basilius makes it so you can spam it against enemies, both securing CS and some harass here and there. It also gives +6 damage which PA tbh needs, and some extra armor which can act as the extra defensive layer.

1:34 - should have pushed for the kill, you had exactly 80 mana, for dagger and blink.

Hitting level 3 - get the 2nd point into dagger. Leave Phantom Strike for level 2, Blur is amazing at level 2 against heavy harass. Basically, adapt to whatever you have in the lane on the first level. Am I getting hit a lot by the enemy ranged support? Blur level 2. Am I doing decently / can I go for a kill with my partner? Phantom Strike level 2.

3:42 - try not to buy anymore regen. Make due with what you have. Usually Phantom Assassin will go for a Battle Fury, so try buying a Ring of Health from the side shop if you have the opportunity. If not, just ask your support for a tango.

9:30 - Don't ever stop to skill something up. As in stopping to move, especially in a situation like that. Try pulling back a tiny bit, you might get jumped on by someone.

Other useful stuff : Try colorcoding your map from the options / console (not sure which), basically, each hero should have it's color pop up on the minimap. Much more useful than what you have now. That red might be Chen or might be Axe at the same time, you never know (for example, mine is always showing up everyone's color, and when I hold down the ALT key, it shows me their small portraits on the minimap).

Chen lane - just bad, never do that, he can easily jungle since level 1.

Axe Battle Hunger build - try to leave your support a last hit or deny to dispel that Battle Hunger. Therefore, he'll be able to hit back sooner, since Axe gains movement speed per each hero afflicted. (which means that either Axe is going to be able to fight back, or your support harass him away).

Manfighting Axe like that - Check his mana. If he would have succesfully landed Culling Blade on you, you would have been dead meat. Since he didn't max Counter Helix, guess you can afford trading a couple hits, just don't get taunted next to your wave.

Pretty much it, hope it helped !

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Smuggels » February 18, 2015 3:30pm | Report
i watched it also...

you really need to practice your last hitting. like a lot i counted about 20ish maybe abit more. this needs to be a hell of a lot higher. you actually had a nice lane with axe not knowing what the hell hes doing so u should have forced that advantage.

but yea practice your last hitting. it was 2 creep waves till u got ur first one.

also shift your positioning a bit your sitting near the trees on the left try sitting nearer to the trees on the right not right next to them but off to the right of the creep wave it provided you with more vision.

but yea practice them last hits :)



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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Dimonychan » February 18, 2015 10:10pm | Report
Also unless you have like 75+(don't know exact number, just from my feelings) you want to hot a ranged creep once when farming under your tower, so when tower gets 2 hit on the creep, you will lasthit it with ease.


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