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Abaddon, Wild Card?

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Forum » General Discussion » Abaddon, Wild Card? 20 posts - page 2 of 2
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Timminatorr » November 9, 2013 4:56am | Report
What is your next item? There are so much choices that are MUCH better. S&Y already gives really mediocre dps, so it isnt going to make a difference on a support abbadon with no other damage items.
So if you want to slow enemies so bad, why get a 16% chance to slow? That is pretty damn ****.
Instead spend 500 gold more and get a shiva's. More armor, a great reliable 40% AOE slow+ the aura. This item puts s&y to shame.
But if you just want to slow that one guy get a rod of atos instead. Or you know what else slows the enemy down? A hex.
Making an S&Y makes even less sense then making a basher on support abbadon. Atleast it has a 25% chance instead of 16. Even a diffusal blade makes more sense, especially when the opponent has ghost scepters.

If you really want something containing a sange get a heavens halberd. That is great on right clickers who dont have BKB activated.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by manic_e » November 9, 2013 10:08am | Report
Seems you're trying to argue that S&Y is a **** item. There's no argument there, it is hideously bad for almost every hero except for support Abbadon and maybe, maybe, bloodseeker.

We're talking about an item which is mainly for survivability as we're talking about an alternative to a heart so lets compare.

HP

Rod of Atos 250 HP
S&Y = 304 HP
Shiva's 0HP
Scythe = 190HP

Armour

Rod of Atos = 0
S&Y = 2 (+2 agi towards the next point of armour)
Shiva's = 15
Scythe = 1 (+3 Agi towards the next point in armour)

Slow

Rod of Atos = 60% guaranteed slow cooldown of 15 seconds 50 mana cost
S&Y = 16% chance of 30% slow for 4 seconds every hit
Shiva's = 40% slow for 4 seconds ranged 30 second cooldown 100 mana cost
Scythe = 4 second garunteed disable 35 second cooldown 100 mana cost

While Shiva's looks the best you do have to get in 719 range not great for running down an opponent with a head start. At least not without a blink or force staff.

Damage

Rod of Atos = 0
S&Y = 32
Shiva's = 1 off 200 (basically equal to 6 hits from a S&Y)
Scythe = 10

Movement speed (with Tranquil boots 85 & 65 ms)
Rod of Atos = 0 increase in ms
S&Y = 97 move speed (boots unbroken) 72 ms (broken boots)
Shiva's = 0 increase to ms
Scythe = 0 increase to ms

You seem to have completely overlooked this part of my argument. With MS that high Abb can get in and out of fights with ease. Those few seconds can make the difference between getting a kill or saving a team mate.

Cost

Rod of Atos = 3100
S&Y = 4100
Shiva's = 4600
Scythe = 5675

Like I said in a previous post the cost of a scythe for me takes this out of the running plus the fact that you will probably have another support or carry on your team who will pick up this item and benefit from it more. Double scythe can be good for a team occasionally when faced with a very hard to kill hero but as I already said it's sooo situational for Abbadon that I'm surprised you included it.

Rod of Atos is a great item that's not picked up enough imo. But does Abbadon really benefit that mush from the extra mana pool? Plus when taken into account that you have to get in range and offers you no mobility unless combined with a blink or force staff then the 4 second slow doesn't look so great.

I love Shiva's I pick it up a lot even on strength heroes like Beastmaster, who really benefits from the increased mana pool. Abbadon at least in my experience doesn't have the same problems with mana that heroes like BM does. There's also the point that Abbadon doesn't benefit from damage reduction when his ult is active making the armour a double edged sword. Also same problems with mobility as with Atos.

Why Sange and Yasha?

Curse of Avernus is why. Increased attack speed, increased damage, increased move speed. OK the slow from S&Y is nothing to write home about but you've already caught up to the hero you're chasing due to the insane move speed. A move speed that means much more now than it did before the other boots got a significant nerf. After catching up to your target you've got a massive attack speed bonus to make up for S&Y's 16% chance of a slow, more times you hit them better your chances of getting a maim. Another reason is as I mentioned and as you chose to ignore the item progression is much better with S&Y because the parts are cheaper and bring immediate benefit to ABB especially compared to the items you've mentioned. Finally back to the main point survivability S&Y comes out on top no question.

I'm not saying S&Y is a great item, it's not. For most heroes it's what you might get when you can afford no good items and you're getting pounded by the enemy carries. I'm not asking you to start playing Abb with with a S&Y. But I do think I've shown quite clearly that the item is not "crazy" on a support Abbadon. Perhaps you were just being hyperbolic for dramatic effect?

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Timminatorr » November 9, 2013 4:34pm | Report
Still, S&Y gives so little utility, it is not worth it at all to spend so much gold for a slow and chasing power, especially that late in the game. You also dont need that much more Hp, since you are already pretty surviveable. Shivas also gives you 1500 EHP. Which is more effective hp against phisical damage that late. And all magical nukes you take is an added benefit to the team since you will survive anyway becouse of your ult.

You also seem to underestimate the aura that shivas applies to your enemies. You also say that you have to be in range to apply the shiva slow, well yea but atleast it is AOE and not melee range.

But the big point is that s&y is not going to make a difference in a teamfight, while for 500 more you have a game changing item. 40 attack speed is no joke.
What is the maim going to do? It is not going to help you win you a teamfight. At best it is going to help you kill an enemy who has more movement speed then your allies when you have run out of stuns or slows. And that is maybe only IF you win the teamfight.
Or you could just bodyblock the opponent during a chase. That doesnt cost any gold at all.

About the items i named only hex, shivas and sometimes heavens halberd are really legit on abba. I only named them becouse i think even those items are better then S&Y.
So i stand by what i said. It is a **** item to build on him. The buildup also doenst matter to me, you shouldnt be dying that much anyway becouse of your ult, and i dont want to carry the loose pieces anyway. With boots, soul ring, mech/other support utility item like urn, TP, (force staff?), wards/senties/dust i want have space for it anyway.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Wulfstan » November 10, 2013 12:41am | Report
Off-Topic: SnY is a really good item for Razor, assuming you don't play that refresher aghs bull****.

Rod of Atos gives 325 HP, so you're wrong again.While with Shiva you have to get in 715 range, with SnY you have to get into melee.Good luck doing that against Anti-Mage (since you mentioned blink).Also, why get SnY on support abbadon when you can get euls and be infinitely more useful?

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Sando » November 10, 2013 8:20am | Report
Good hero choice for support into semi-carry. Shield and Heal don't scale well into late game so you need to make the most of his ult and passive with your items. Actually really like Mask of Madness on him, it makes sense when taking more damage = more healing :).
A full list of my guides is here

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by manic_e » November 11, 2013 1:47pm | Report
I find it quite strange that people get so aggressive about other people's item choices. It's so common in the Dota community. Wulfstan my opinion of you was higher than that. OK I made a small mistake in an extremely long post, obviously that discredits anything I have or ever will say again. I'm not going to carry on banging my head against a brick wall especially not when I'm obviously causing people to become hostile. I'll just leave it at this. How many times have you tried it on Abb? I have a 100% winrate with race car builds on support Abb so I'm happy.

p.s. I also picked up the build from watching a pro Abb game.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Timminatorr » November 11, 2013 2:05pm | Report
manic_e wrote:

I find it quite strange that people get so aggressive about other people's item choices. It's so common in the Dota community. Wulfstan my opinion of you was higher than that. OK I made a small mistake in an extremely long post, obviously that discredits anything I have or ever will say again. I'm not going to carry on banging my head against a brick wall especially not when I'm obviously causing people to become hostile. I'll just leave it at this. How many times have you tried it on Abb? I have a 100% winrate with race car builds on support Abb so I'm happy.

p.s. I also picked up the build from watching a pro Abb game.

Im sorry mate becouse it was centainly not my intention to sound agressive. :( But it is kinda hard to do that when typing such a long story.

Doesnt change my opininon though. Pro's make really bad item/skill build choices too.
Even loda constantly makes S&Y on lifestealer even though they are (slightly) behind. Then he loses a manfight with S&Y+ hyperstone where he doesnt do enough damage and has no lockdown. Even though he could have had an abbysal.
Ive also seen enough timbersaw's die or not being on full fighting potential becouse they get 4 points into whirling death and none into timber chain by level 7. It makes me so sad, i wanna see the goblin FLYYYY. ;_;

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Atlas » November 11, 2013 2:39pm | Report
I don't think SnY is quite as bad since the 6.79 change, now it gives 5% more movespeed. Not to say it's a top tier item, but it can be acceptable on certain heroes now that require chasing power, like Riki or some strength Semicarries like Lifestealer.

On abbadon though? Please don't. He is a support, I can't stand seeing people try to carry him. He gets outclassed in practically every department as a carry. Build a Mek on him and abuse his stupid heal and shield for mid-game dominance.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by manic_e » November 11, 2013 5:20pm | Report
sorry probably being a bit over sensitive forget about it.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Wulfstan » November 12, 2013 4:33am | Report
Quoted:
Im sorry mate becouse it was centainly not my intention to sound agressive. :( But it is kinda hard to do that when typing such a long story.


Neither was mine, I just tried to point out the mistakes in a "fashionable" way.I didn't mean to be disrespectful, and if you consider that I was, then I'm sorry.Out of the long story, I just pointed out what I think is a mistake.

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