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The Evidence of Dota 2s Conceptual Design Error

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Forum » General Discussion » The Evidence of Dota 2s Conceptual Design Error 6 posts - page 1 of 1
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kyfoid » June 18, 2018 2:19pm | Report
Evasion is and has traditionally been more conceptually relevant to that which is the classification of agility

In dota 2, there is no denying this trend and theme

You have 8 total agility heroes who have the option for evasion in their talent tree

Bounty Hunter
Clinks
Medussa
Meepo
Naga Siren
Phantom Lancer
Terror Blade
Troll Warlord

You have the 2nd highest agility stat item in the game, butterfly, with the stat of the highest amount of evasion possible on one item 35%.

This item represents agility even better then ethereal blade as it has attack speed on it which aligns with the very enhancement that agility provides itself.

Conclusion?

Agility and Evasion go hand and hand much more often then not.

Now, when you look at the intelligence class, you have two heroes who get evasion in the talent tree.

Dark Seer
Leshrac

This is fine and dandy until you look at the attributes that these two heroes minor in...

Hell, dark seer's highest stat growth is strength
2nd to that it is intelligence
Agility, last place

Leshrac, highest stat growth is intelligence
2nd highest stat growth is strength
and in last place, agility

The weakest growth stat of both of these heroes is agility, yet both of these heroes are the only intel heroes that have evasion in their talent tree.

If any or most of the intel heroes who have secondary highest stat growth as agility, should be the heroes where most of the evasion talents should be....


This is obviously MASSIVE conceptual error on valves part and is not acceptable....

It is straight forward hypocrisy right with in the severely broken improperly classified design language.

Kyfoid


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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kyfoid » June 18, 2018 2:36pm | Report
Mind you I write this post as they disgracefully downgrade the evasion of solar crest to

15% from 20% (not that it's conceptually wrong but it's all intel heroes had)

Off a 50 gold cost reduction

And have still not put in to the game a single item that provides armor with strength or life pool enhancing components in them

Except for Spirit Vessel

2nd highest evasion item is the strength themed heaven's halbred?

Give me a break...

If any strength themed item had evasion it would be of the lowest amount of evasion

If not, then they are basically saying that intel heroes don't need shields because they already get shielding in some way from their primary stat... which we don't see at all in any way shape or form, so WHICH IS IT?

Kyfoid


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Posts: 625
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kyfoid » June 19, 2018 2:40am | Report
I have a 3rd and final post for this thread that's definitely worth considering

It seems to me that valve would interpret the way that an intel hero would achieve the concept of evasion would be through an ability sense and not a passive sense.

There is a trinity of abilities that exist to do just that, however, they are the abilities of 3 different item components and not any ability of a hero.

They are,
Shadow Amulet
Ghost Scepter
Blink Dagger

Shadow amulet has attack speed also representing its alignment with the attack speed of agility

Ghost scepter would represent the evasion side

And Blink dagger would represent the movement speed side (note the ability of butterfly)

Armor is not included in this because armor leans towards life pool, leans towards strength.

It would seem to me that a GREAT idea in my opinion is that with some of these higher agility growth heroes of the intelligence class, that they receive 1 of the 3 components listed above in to their inventory as a talent. I'll go through the list of the highest agility growth heroes of the intelligence class.

Silencer
Bane

I've noticed that heroes in the game of dota 2 who have abilities that steal from the opponent in one way or another, or have a permanent increase of an aspect of themselves passively and outside the description of abilities (such as silencers permanent intelligence growth acquired in the vicinity of opponent death) are kind of oddball heroes and tend to have stats that are equal across the board. This is definitely true with bane and also applies to silencer. So for now, even though these intel heroes have the highest agility growth of the intel heroes, I will exclude them.

So now we are looking at the next highest agility growth as a 2ndary stat of the intel class

Ancient Apparition 2.2
Chen 2.1
Lich 2.0

Would be the list of heroes who have their highest secondary stat growth as agility

Each of these heroes has a talent of Gold Per minute, and I think this talent is just completely useless.

Instead, replace the gold per minute with the receiving of 1 of the 3 components in to their inventory.

I think AA would receive a shadow amulet using attack speed to work with Chilling Touch

Chen would receive a ghost scepter since none of his abilities suggests that he should be attacking with basic attacks, where as lich gets + 120 damage as one of his talents.

And finally, lich would receive a blink dagger since he could initiate his chain frost ultimate while chen and AA have universal or infinite range with their ultimates.

Otherwise, we revert back to the argument that the intelligence class is lacking a blocking concept in one way or another....

Think about it....


You have around 15 intelligence heroes who have the talent option of gold per minute

You have 2 heroes that have the talent option of gold per minute

What intel hero is actually taking a farming approach going in to their gold per minute talent to make the gold per minute talent meaningful?

When are people going to grow up and realize that game designers do this absurd stuff intentionally to troll you and piss you off...

And then you wonder why the community is toxic?

It's toxic because they want it to be toxic.... they secretly play the business philosophy card that drama is entertaining and sucks the plebs in....

Kyfoid


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Posts: 625
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kyfoid » June 24, 2018 8:17am | Report
I want to throw another point out there but I don't want to make another thread for it

Concept: Heroes whos abilities synergize with their primary stat

These are the best heroes in the game because they don't necessarily need complete items in order to grow their effectiveness

An example of a hero who doesn't have this might be a hero like Earth Shaker

None of his abilities have any particular synergy with this stat...

So Earth Shaker really can't be at his best with out complete items

Where as with other heroes, if they happen to die once or twice, can still fall back on dumping their gold in to primary stat items and fill their roll as strongly as ever....

This has to be a major game design philosophy error.... every hero should have abilities effective relative to their primary stat, in some way...

Talents might have helped a little in this regard however...

Kyfoid


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Posts: 625
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by LordVesper » June 25, 2018 1:08am | Report
After seeing your constant posting about this in the forums I've come to realize you're actually 100% serious. I'll give my two cents on what you've said:

1. While I do agree that there is a "conceptual error" on the Dota 2 development team's part, I am fairly confident that they added in these quirks for the heroes intentionally. In all honesty, you're the first I've ever seen to complain about this. Most players are just fine with how random and quirky some heroes are. Let's take Ogre Magi as an example. He's an Intelligence-class hero that has pretty ****ty INT gain and his talents push him forward to either become a Carry or Durable hero. I'm 100% sure this is fully intended and personally it gives more personality and uniqueness to each of Dota 2's heroes. Feel free to argue on this one.

2. As for your 2nd post, I believe INT heroes are balanced in a way that they don't receive much survivability at all. I believe they're NOT supposed to have any sort of shielding as their main purpose is to usually just throw out spells and stay in the backline (e.g. Skywrath Mage and Shadow Demon. Solar Crest's nerf was deemed necessary because it was too cost-efficient for what it does. It's entered territory where pretty much any hero can get it if they wanted durability in the form of armor and evasion, shadowing the likes of Assault Cuirass which while expensive, is worth the investment because of how much armor it provides for you and your team. Solar Crest in its old state was basically a much less expensive and potentially more effective Assault Cuirass, and that's bad for the game's balance.

3. For your last post, again, Earthshaker may have been intentionally designed in a way that he might as well be an INT hero because all of his spells lean him toward the Caster/Initiator role. Perhaps he's a STR hero for balance reasons? None may say for sure. Can't really say that it would be considered as a "major game design philosophy error" since I truly believe that Dota 2 is intentionally made to be random and quirky. I personally would prefer Dota 2 as is than to have heroes that are straightforward to learn since all their abilities and stats synergize perfectly.

Anyways, that's all I have to say for now. Feel free to let me know your thoughts.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kyfoid » June 25, 2018 1:26pm | Report
The way I would see it is that quirkiness would be defined as a hero whos primary stat is 2nd to another stat, this other stat being the highest growth stat.

The ultimate quirkiness would be if the heroes primary stat had the worst growth to the other two, and this kind of hero would have to be filling a role so unique that it probably would be the only role that exists apart from any other role to describe it. And so would probably not exist, because it probably should not exist in the first place.

In terms of the first point, I like to use silencer as an example. He collects or steals intel from enemies who die around himself, naturally, separate from even his abilities.

I suppose I would call this very capability a quirk

He's probably going to end up with more intel then agility as the highest stat growth anyways...

Uniqueness of heroes, which I view as being the healthiest thing for the game as artistic harmonies can align with such things and be implemented in to the game smoothly in function and proportion, which gives the player a true purity to what may be one of his greatest fantasies, is what the gaming experience should be all about. Albeit, seeming to be quite an undertaking for even a passionate game developer.

But the uniqueness of a hero being defined firstly on a macro level by how close or far away the second most growing stat is from the least most and the most growth. The closer to one or the other, the greater the uniqueness. Other point being whether to just shut down an entire stat all together. Which would then be a quirk because it is like saying that the skills of this hero are going to address the entire aspect of this absent stat. Otherwise, once again... it would be like classifying a hero outside the standard of every other hero.... For example... a hero that doesn't move at all. Or is moving in such a unique way that we would classify it as strength based rather then agility based, if we understand agility as being graceful, then what do we understand as being rigid? intelligence because of mental stuttering genius? Ok, so this hero moves around by blinking everywhere.

Kyfoid


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