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Questions regarding support heroes

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Forum » New Player Help » Questions regarding support heroes 42 posts - page 2 of 5
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by ChiChi » April 24, 2015 10:47am | Report
by TheSofa » April 23, 2015 11:31pm | Report
ChiChi, both Storm and WR buy BKB.

Well, the thing is virtually everyone should buy a Black King Bar if need be (and specially against Lina), but believe me, it's been a long time since I've seen a Storm Spirit and a Windranger with one :) (I'm sitting at around 2k, if that helps)

In pubs, people tend to concentrate too much on the items they want to ideally do with the hero (in this case, Bloodstone, Orchid Malevolence, Scythe of Vyse, Aghanim's Scepter, Daedalus and so on), and they forget to counter their enemies. Just to give you an example: a few days ago, I lost a game with an Anti-Mage that insisted on buying a Manta Style and a Talisman of Evasion against Earthshaker, Phantom Assassin and a Spirit Breaker already with a Monkey King Bar. He then simply refused to buy the Monkey King Bar we asked him to. We tried explaining to him in every possible way how his item choices should be based on the enemy and how we would lose if he wasn't able to hit PA (and how he died more easily to Earth Shaker all the time because of his Manta ilusions, etc), but he simply answered "that's not my build, I won't do it". And Phantom Assassin bought a Butterfly and rekted...

Of course indeed we should not be expecting our enemies to do the fool thing, so you're right, both Storm Spirit and Windranger can perfectly fit a Black King Bar in their build, but I was trying to give examples of heroes that most never do (contrary to heroes like Phantom Assassin and Sven, where is 99% of the times core). Perhaps other examples would fit better here? Who would you say are almost never expected to buy a BKB?

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by TheSofa » April 24, 2015 2:11pm | Report
ChiChi wrote:

by TheSofa �» April 23, 2015 11:31pm | Report
ChiChi, both Storm and WR buy BKB.

Well, the thing is virtually everyone should buy a Black King Bar if need be (and specially against Lina), but believe me, it's been a long time since I've seen a Storm Spirit and a Windranger with one :) (I'm sitting at around 2k, if that helps)

In pubs, people tend to concentrate too much on the items they want to ideally do with the hero (in this case, Bloodstone, Orchid Malevolence, Scythe of Vyse, Aghanim's Scepter, Daedalus and so on), and they forget to counter their enemies. Just to give you an example: a few days ago, I lost a game with an Anti-Mage that insisted on buying a Manta Style and a Talisman of Evasion against Earthshaker, Phantom Assassin and a Spirit Breaker already with a Monkey King Bar. He then simply refused to buy the Monkey King Bar we asked him to. We tried explaining to him in every possible way how his item choices should be based on the enemy and how we would lose if he wasn't able to hit PA (and how he died more easily to Earth Shaker all the time because of his Manta ilusions, etc), but he simply answered "that's not my build, I won't do it". And Phantom Assassin bought a Butterfly and rekted...

Of course indeed we should not be expecting our enemies to do the fool thing, so you're right, both Storm Spirit and Windranger can perfectly fit a Black King Bar in their build, but I was trying to give examples of heroes that most never do (contrary to heroes like Phantom Assassin and Sven, where is 99% of the times core). Perhaps other examples would fit better here? Who would you say are almost never expected to buy a BKB?

Spectre?

And most illusion heroes.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Xyrus » April 24, 2015 2:23pm | Report
ChiChi wrote:

by TheSofa ���» April 23, 2015 11:31pm | Report
ChiChi, both Storm and WR buy BKB.

Well, the thing is virtually everyone should buy a Black King Bar if need be (and specially against Lina), but believe me, it's been a long time since I've seen a Storm Spirit and a Windranger with one :) (I'm sitting at around 2k, if that helps)

In pubs, people tend to concentrate too much on the items they want to ideally do with the hero (in this case, Bloodstone, Orchid Malevolence, Scythe of Vyse, Aghanim's Scepter, Daedalus and so on), and they forget to counter their enemies. Just to give you an example: a few days ago, I lost a game with an Anti-Mage that insisted on buying a Manta Style and a Talisman of Evasion against Earthshaker, Phantom Assassin and a Spirit Breaker already with a Monkey King Bar. He then simply refused to buy the Monkey King Bar we asked him to. We tried explaining to him in every possible way how his item choices should be based on the enemy and how we would lose if he wasn't able to hit PA (and how he died more easily to Earth Shaker all the time because of his Manta ilusions, etc), but he simply answered "that's not my build, I won't do it". And Phantom Assassin bought a Butterfly and rekted...

Of course indeed we should not be expecting our enemies to do the fool thing, so you're right, both Storm Spirit and Windranger can perfectly fit a Black King Bar in their build, but I was trying to give examples of heroes that most never do (contrary to heroes like Phantom Assassin and Sven, where is 99% of the times core). Perhaps other examples would fit better here? Who would you say are almost never expected to buy a BKB?

Supports.

If the other Team has sufficient lockdown and Damage that can be blocked by Magic Immunity, all Core Heroes should consider buying a Black King Bar. The only exceptions are Heroes that excel at kiting these Spells, e.g. Puck, Phantom Lancer, Storm Spirit, Juggernaut, etc. but even these guys have to consider getting a Black King Bar at some point.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by ChiChi » April 24, 2015 2:24pm | Report
You're right, that would be the best example! But I won't suggest picking Lina when you're new against illusion heroes. Have fun using your ultimate on shadows... =/ (if you're not new to the hero this no longer applies)

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by ChiChi » April 24, 2015 2:29pm | Report
Xyrus, you're right too, in most cases you don't expect supports to have a BKB, unless they find a way to farm it (specially on heroes with channeling abilities). So Lina would be a good pick against the likes of Jakiro or Bane too, for instance?

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Timminatorr » April 24, 2015 5:04pm | Report
ChiChi wrote:

by TheSofa �» April 23, 2015 11:31pm | Report
ChiChi, both Storm and WR buy BKB.

Well, the thing is virtually everyone should buy a Black King Bar if need be (and specially against Lina), but believe me, it's been a long time since I've seen a Storm Spirit and a Windranger with one :) (I'm sitting at around 2k, if that helps)

In pubs, people tend to concentrate too much on the items they want to ideally do with the hero (in this case, Bloodstone, Orchid Malevolence, Scythe of Vyse, Aghanim's Scepter, Daedalus and so on), and they forget to counter their enemies. Just to give you an example: a few days ago, I lost a game with an Anti-Mage that insisted on buying a Manta Style and a Talisman of Evasion against Earthshaker, Phantom Assassin and a Spirit Breaker already with a Monkey King Bar. He then simply refused to buy the Monkey King Bar we asked him to. We tried explaining to him in every possible way how his item choices should be based on the enemy and how we would lose if he wasn't able to hit PA (and how he died more easily to Earth Shaker all the time because of his Manta ilusions, etc), but he simply answered "that's not my build, I won't do it". And Phantom Assassin bought a Butterfly and rekted...

Of course indeed we should not be expecting our enemies to do the fool thing, so you're right, both Storm Spirit and Windranger can perfectly fit a Black King Bar in their build, but I was trying to give examples of heroes that most never do (contrary to heroes like Phantom Assassin and Sven, where is 99% of the times core). Perhaps other examples would fit better here? Who would you say are almost never expected to buy a BKB?

well its mostly because you are currently at 2k mmr that you dont see storms getting BKB, because its 99% core on him since he needs to jump in to do his stuff.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Sando » April 24, 2015 5:28pm | Report
Lina is ok against illusion heroes due to her AOE, pretty good for clearing them until they get really farmed.

Generally you pick her against relatively squishy heroes who don't build a lot of HP, especially if they're reliant on other escapes - e.g. Windranger or Phantom Assassin. By the time enemies are picking up BKBs (at least situational on every hero) you'll hopefully have transistioned into some right click, or will be playing support so won't care so much. (she's usually core this these days though)
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Hamstertamer » April 24, 2015 5:50pm | Report
Still really not a fan of support Lina. Hero is very level dependent, and she's at the core a snowballing ganker no matter how you play her. She needs a fast level 11 and a fast Euls. She's a hero who needs a level advantage to be effective, so if she doesn't get momentum she'll fall off really hard. And, if you need a support, well... Lion.
Not to mention, Lina pushes the lane, which is that last thing you want to do as a support.
A Lina with Arcanes/mek 30 minutes into the game is pretty much useless.

Back when I played a lot of Lina I played her exclusively offlane. Like Death Prophet or Leshrac, all these heroes with a spammy nuke are actually really good offlaners since they can just spam their nuke for CS with a Tranquil Boots/ Soul Ring and be very annoying harassers. And she can stun to get out of tricky situations. For me offlane is mostly about long range farming under pressure, and about trading hits with supports...not about having an escape :)
So for me, a pub Lina who doesn't go mid -> solo offlane or dual offlane all the way.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Timminatorr » April 24, 2015 6:14pm | Report
Hamstertamer wrote:

Still really not a fan of support Lina. Hero is very level dependent, and she's at the core a snowballing ganker no matter how you play her. She needs a fast level 11 and a fast Euls. She's a hero who needs a level advantage to be effective, so if she doesn't get momentum she'll fall off really hard. And, if you need a support, well... Lion.
Not to mention, Lina pushes the lane, which is that last thing you want to do as a support.
A Lina with Arcanes/mek 30 minutes into the game is pretty much useless.

Back when I played a lot of Lina I played her exclusively offlane. Like Death Prophet or Leshrac, all these heroes with a spammy nuke are actually really good offlaners since they can just spam their nuke for CS with a Tranquil Boots/ Soul Ring and be very annoying harassers. And she can stun to get out of tricky situations. For me offlane is mostly about long range farming under pressure, and about trading hits with supports...not about having an escape :)
So for me, a pub Lina who doesn't go mid -> solo offlane or dual offlane all the way.

Well thats the whoe point of support lina, a greedy support who can become a 4th core and be a menace around the map even solo.
Lion is less greedy but both with equal farm lina will be deadlier.

Not saying eiher one is better but lina is just really good as a greedy 4 position support, and she can farm pretty easily too, you just cant blindly pick it in a pub.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Sando » April 25, 2015 10:00am | Report
Support Lina used to be the pro way of playing her, she hasn't really changed much in terms of buffs (slight increase in range and stun size). I'd agree she's always been best played greedy, whether that means core or #4. She's definitely in need of at least some additional equipment relatively early to be effective...but she only used to be picked up as a nuker against low HP targets anyway.

Personally, I think she makes more sense as a mid, provided you can compete for hits effectively with her bad animation.
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