DotA 2 Smalltalk

Argumentum ad populum is complete trash because vast majority of people have no idea how things work in Dota and simply repeat smthing said/done by actually good players. If you have any doubt in this, just do something slightly unusual that actually works and see people react(spoiler alert: they will flame you for anything they will deem "silly", because they always think they know better).

Essentially the problem I have is very simple :

- Abyssal is a Vanguard worth of stats plus HP regen plus an active
- Sheep is an Ultimate Orb worth of stats plus mana regen plus an active

Before, abyssal was a Sacred Relic worth of stats plus an active. So this made abyssal a better item on melee carries than sheep, because carries want damage. Abyssal was awesome stats plus an active, sheep was mediocre stats plus an active.

I always thought the sheep active was far better than the abyssal active. It's almost twice the duration, and 800 cast range! And a lower cooldown. Piercing BKB isn't worth giving up on all that, especially when you don't have a way to jump BKB'd targets.

Like, would you rather have a 7 second 2000 cast range stun that doesn't pierce BKB, or would you rather have Primal Roar?
"piercing BKB" is simply not worth "10 times as good".

But now the abyssal stats are actually *worse* than the sheep stats. Because Ultimate Orb is a good item, Vanguard, not really.

So it all comes down to
* Is the abyssal active ever better than the sheep active? Honestly, for me, that's a massive no. BKB piercing isn't worth the halved duration and melee cast range.
* Is HP regen better on your hero than mana regen? If you have a hero with no mana issues whatsoever but who absolutely needs HP regen, it might be an argument.




I covered it in my previous post. Essentially Crimson Guard is a much better buildup from Vanguard than abyssal, considering how that hero works.




You can use items during Omnislash, so I don't see how he doesn't benefit from scythe during ult. Actually, he can't use abyssal during ult because melee cast range, while he can use 800 cast range sheep easily when omnislashing.

On Jugger, both abyssal and sheep only have their place as late game items. Since neither item gives good stats, it comes down to which active is better.

Jugger gets mana regen from bfury...well first if he gets one, and HP regen is wasted on the hero anyways becaus ehe has ward. So it's more like Jugger doesn't need regen.

ALso, scythe has 800 cast range. It's perfectly viable initiation without a blink by using the fog to initiate.

Again, you lost 60 damage on abyssal, and got a Vanguard instead. Sure it's still viable on carries?




Okay, mayyybe, and that's just because Centaur really benefits from HP regen and doesn't especially need mana regen.
I'd still much rather have the sheep active, but the abyssal regen at least has good synergy with him.

Still, it's not an aghs, blademail, forcestaff, pipe or halberd, so there are better midgame options on Centaur.

And sheep is always better in the late game
...because anything that builds from Vanguard can't decently be called a late game item.

Centaur is probably the least bad of the list though, I admit.




Ummm...no. He doesn't. Vanguard NS is not and has never been a thing.
Just because Volvo has premade item builds on heroes doesn't mean they're not completely garbage.
Just compare rushing Vanguard on NS and rushing this item



On one hand, you have 65 damage, 25 attack speed, 9 armor, and tons of effective HP from armlet toggling.
On the other hand, you have 250 HP and a bit of damage block.

Basher NS is good because it cancels TP scrolls, but Vanguard NS is literally horrible scrub tier -_-




And how exactly do you snowball with a 6K gold item that deals zero damage?




Well it used to be great on Alchemist, but is it still?

Again, you lost 60 damage and gained a Vanguard.

Abyssal is just the bash and the active now. Alch is already slot-starved as hell. Won't you rather have a skadi, a MKB or something?

Also, the sheep active is awesome on Alch, since he can initiate with sheep and follow-up with stun. The abyssal active is just weak to getting kited.

Alch used to by abyssal because it was an expensive late game item. But its no longer a late game item now, is it?




Doesn't do much except Force Staff away and trap the BKB'd carry in his cogs? Clock is one of the best counters to BKB in the game...
Now he can even Blade Mail.



In the early game, vanguard makes you tankier. Thing is, in the early game Clock buys blademail, forcestaff and aghs. Not vanguard.

In the late game vanguard doesn't make you tankier in any way.



Well he has a way to land the abyssal active, that's for sure. But the sheep active is still better.

Clock can buy *both* abyssal and sheep. But if I have to choose, I'd take the sheep anyday.



If you're playing CK against Sven, rat dota is pretty much the only way you can win. That and sick illusion micro with control groups.

If you buy abyssal against Sven, how do you land it on the BKB'd Sven? Reality Rift doesn't go through BKB. You can't walk up to him or you get 3-shotted.

So how is it relevant to have a BKB-piercing stun over a sheep?

Also, Ultimate Orb gives stats to CK illusions. Vanguard doesn't.




Corrected the numbers, cause it's worse than you think.

You forgot the +15 to all stats. It's as much stats as a linkens.

Also, silver edge is good in teamfights as well. Strap it on a ranged hero, you have a 600 range active.

Silver is not a ganking item. It's a hate item against heroes with passives. Exactly the same way Heaven's Halberd is a hate item against ranged carries. It's a hard counter to heroes like PA or BB that were already underpowered as hell.

I think I might actually understand what Smuggels meant.