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This is starting to sound personal now. Most people who look up these guides are pub players or new to the heroes. People who are on a higher tier wouldn't need guides, and I and many others I've recommended this build to have found it to be incredibly successful, and I've justified my choices adequately. If you don't agree with them, fine, but my reasons are justified enough. And you're still wrong about Vanguard. If it was for the reasons you state, then why would it be commonly built on someone like Anti-Mage or Weaver?
And still, Bloodstone; giving your team protection against magic early outweights giving yourself regen and more health and mana, and it adds to Undying's survivability. An Undying that respawns faster than his team after a teamwipe is useless compared to one who helped them survive. Bloodstone is not an item Undying players should be aiming for every game, hence why it's situational.
My guide -- like many other guides -- is based on experiences and experimentation with different scenarios encountered in game. I'm not coming up with an "excuse" for it (which frankly, I find insulting), because I stand by my choices. If you feel it wouldn't suit you or how you would play him, then fine; but don't go as far as to tell me I'm wrong per se with my choices. I've justified my build and explained it well; I'd understand if i said "go for these items and nothing else", but I haven't. There's flexibility, and while I hear what you're saying, this is a case of differing opinions, not fact.
Its not personal at all, instead of looking at my post coming off as hostile you should look at it as me trying to be helpful. I'm giving you criticism. You're getting offended because I believe that you are using the word "pub" as a cop out, I already stated that we don't know your level of play, your pub matches may be a much higher or lower than many of the users on the site. Which is where we go back to your item choices lacking synergy, I'm telling you that there are much better/cost efficient variants for your build. I never told you that you HAVE to build Bloodstone, I was justifying why its not a bad item and has synergy with Blademail. I even suggest that you throw it out and build Aghanim's with Pipe.
Vanguard is also not a very good pick up on these heroes (specifically Magina) in my opinion. There's much better cost effective routes (Battle Fury), but if you need an explanation, its because its easy health and regen to transition from contributing early to transitioning back to the jungle were jungle creeps hit for just about half of what Vanguard blocks. Its more of a fallback if you know that Battle Fury or Linken's just isn't safe enough or easy enough to farm in the effective time.
I understand where you sit at at this point, but all I SUGGEST is that you create two different builds, one for each scenario you brought up in your guide, because most people look up the build, copy the top of the page exactly and leave the site.
This is starting to sound personal now. Most people who look up these guides are pub players or new to the heroes. People who are on a higher tier wouldn't need guides, and I and many others I've recommended this build to have found it to be incredibly successful, and I've justified my choices adequately. If you don't agree with them, fine, but my reasons are justified enough. And you're still wrong about Vanguard. If it was for the reasons you state, then why would it be commonly built on someone like Anti-Mage or Weaver?
And still, Bloodstone; giving your team protection against magic early outweights giving yourself regen and more health and mana, and it adds to Undying's survivability. An Undying that respawns faster than his team after a teamwipe is useless compared to one who helped them survive. Bloodstone is not an item Undying players should be aiming for every game, hence why it's situational.
My guide -- like many other guides -- is based on experiences and experimentation with different scenarios encountered in game. I'm not coming up with an "excuse" for it (which frankly, I find insulting), because I stand by my choices. If you feel it wouldn't suit you or how you would play him, then fine; but don't go as far as to tell me I'm wrong per se with my choices. I've justified my build and explained it well; I'd understand if i said "go for these items and nothing else", but I haven't. There's flexibility, and while I hear what you're saying, this is a case of differing opinions, not fact.
im grabbing some popcorn and start refreshing this page, cause **** is about to get real here.....
I hope you don't use this excuse for future guides, simply saying "oh, its for pubs" doesn't justify having flaws, and if someone saw that, they most likely won't take the guide seriously. Even if they are using it for public play, the mentality that its only used in pub matches is not very accurate as we don't know what priority you're in or the win percentile group of users you get matched with.
Vanguard is in fact for on-hit reactive abilities, that's fact not opinion, it synergizes with these abilities because of proccing these abilities while allowing block to not hinder the output of the damage. Vanguard was actually the only item besides Aghanim's that actually had synergy with Blademail. When I say resistances, I mean Armor and Magic resistance, these reduce the damage you take and therefore reduces the damage output of Blademail. That is why I said that your core would be more effective if you replace Pipe from your core and replace it with an HP based booster, or replacing Blademail with Aghanim's.
Back again on the Bloodstone, if you get either a Perseverance or a Soul Booster and follow that up with a Blademail, building the rest of the components slowly will not hurt your team at all. There's not one thing that Dirge doesn't benefit from Bloodstone, and you seem to be stuck on using the "snowball" ability to its fullest. Its literally a free ability, its an added bonus at no cost, if you don't utilize it, it doesn't have a cost on you like in League where you have to stack the charges to get any use of the item. You have to look at the ease of acquiring as a factor to, it's much more beneficial to piece a Bloodstone together then trying to save up for your Heart that requires 3200 up front plus a 1200 recipe that doesn't have its passive ability in a fight.
On the note of Soul Rip, I don't think you got what I was saying, so here's a deciphered version: Instead of getting level 4 Soul Rip, level up Decay and leave Soul Rip at level 3. Decay is an AoE, Soul Rip is a single target that you won't utilize until later in the game. You leave your ability leveling the same except switch level 4 Soul Rip for Level 2 Decay.
This is starting to sound personal now. Most people who look up these guides are pub players or new to the heroes. People who are on a higher tier wouldn't need guides, and I and many others I've recommended this build to have found it to be incredibly successful, and I've justified my choices adequately. If you don't agree with them, fine, but my reasons are justified enough. And you're still wrong about Vanguard. If it was for the reasons you state, then why would it be commonly built on someone like Anti-Mage or Weaver?
And still, Bloodstone; giving your team protection against magic early outweights giving yourself regen and more health and mana, and it adds to Undying's survivability. An Undying that respawns faster than his team after a teamwipe is useless compared to one who helped them survive. Bloodstone is not an item Undying players should be aiming for every game, hence why it's situational.
My guide -- like many other guides -- is based on experiences and experimentation with different scenarios encountered in game. I'm not coming up with an "excuse" for it (which frankly, I find insulting), because I stand by my choices. If you feel it wouldn't suit you or how you would play him, then fine; but don't go as far as to tell me I'm wrong per se with my choices. I've justified my build and explained it well; I'd understand if i said "go for these items and nothing else", but I haven't. There's flexibility, and while I hear what you're saying, this is a case of differing opinions, not fact.
The build here is in accordance with pub mentality; often if you play Undying as an initiator, you find he gets focused quickly. If he uses Blademail, he can take the damage, reflect it back then use his Soul Rip to offset the damage taken. Vanguard most certainly isn't an item for on-hit return abilities; yes, it doesn't synergize well with something like Blademail, but it is good for Undying's regen and overall tankiness.
As for the Bloostone, yes, it undoubtedly is a good item, but it's extremely situational on Undying. If your team's clearly getting the upper hand, then yes, it's good because it keeps it that way, but if it's quite balanced on your team's behind, then something like a Pipe is FAR more beneficial to them. If you're doing bad, and you put other items aside to get your Bloodstone, it won't pay off. You won't get enough charges, and the regen will be negligible.
As for not maxing Soul Rip first; I used to do this, but there's two major problems here: The mana cost goes up and the strength stolen remains the same. The damage increase is also negligible compared to what Decay can do. You have to bear in mind how careless the person you're laning against can be, especially if you're against a squishy carry looking to get a last hit. And even if there's only 15 units in lane, 15x25=375, making it the strongest lv3 nuke in the game.
I hope you don't use this excuse for future guides, simply saying "oh, its for pubs" doesn't justify having flaws, and if someone saw that, they most likely won't take the guide seriously. Even if they are using it for public play, the mentality that its only used in pub matches is not very accurate as we don't know what priority you're in or the win percentile group of users you get matched with.
Vanguard is in fact for on-hit reactive abilities, that's fact not opinion, it synergizes with these abilities because of proccing these abilities while allowing block to not hinder the output of the damage. Vanguard was actually the only item besides Aghanim's that actually had synergy with Blademail. When I say resistances, I mean Armor and Magic resistance, these reduce the damage you take and therefore reduces the damage output of Blademail. That is why I said that your core would be more effective if you replace Pipe from your core and replace it with an HP based booster, or replacing Blademail with Aghanim's.
Back again on the Bloodstone, if you get either a Perseverance or a Soul Booster and follow that up with a Blademail, building the rest of the components slowly will not hurt your team at all. There's not one thing that Dirge doesn't benefit from Bloodstone, and you seem to be stuck on using the "snowball" ability to its fullest. Its literally a free ability, its an added bonus at no cost, if you don't utilize it, it doesn't have a cost on you like in League where you have to stack the charges to get any use of the item. You have to look at the ease of acquiring as a factor to, it's much more beneficial to piece a Bloodstone together then trying to save up for your Heart that requires 3200 up front plus a 1200 recipe that doesn't have its passive ability in a fight.
On the note of Soul Rip, I don't think you got what I was saying, so here's a deciphered version: Instead of getting level 4 Soul Rip, level up Decay and leave Soul Rip at level 3. Decay is an AoE, Soul Rip is a single target that you won't utilize until later in the game. You leave your ability leveling the same except switch level 4 Soul Rip for Level 2 Decay.
Your early game synergizes well with itself, the great HP regen counteracts the Soul Ring, but your mid game has no synergy with your luxury. Blademail is hurt by building resistances, with all the proposed items, you're better off skipping Blademail and going straight for the Aghanim's. I would also stay away from Vanguard, its an item used for on-hit reactive skills such as Axe's Counter Helix.
I also disagree with your opinion on Bloodstone, while it does benefit greatly from snowballing its extremely cost effective and has a relatively easy buildup that has no recipes. You'll most likely be getting every kill/assist that happens in the game by the time you acquire it, combine this with the lack of a recipe, you get an ability that can eliminate the need for a buyback and be on the defensive even quicker if you have already used your buyback.
In aspect of your skill build, you shouldn't need to max Soul Rip. It slows your leveling of Tombstone and until you're performing 4v4 or 5v5 fights, there generally won't be more then 15 units in a lane. With the reduced cooldown/longer duration/increased damage from the second level of decay you'll do more in a gank to multiple targets, rather then having to wait the ten seconds for another Soul Rip that you most likely won't be getting the full effect from.
The build here is in accordance with pub mentality; often if you play Undying as an initiator, you find he gets focused quickly. If he uses Blademail, he can take the damage, reflect it back then use his Soul Rip to offset the damage taken. Vanguard most certainly isn't an item for on-hit return abilities; yes, it doesn't synergize well with something like Blademail, but it is good for Undying's regen and overall tankiness.
As for the Bloostone, yes, it undoubtedly is a good item, but it's extremely situational on Undying. If your team's clearly getting the upper hand, then yes, it's good because it keeps it that way, but if it's quite balanced on your team's behind, then something like a Pipe is FAR more beneficial to them. If you're doing bad, and you put other items aside to get your Bloodstone, it won't pay off. You won't get enough charges, and the regen will be negligible.
As for not maxing Soul Rip first; I used to do this, but there's two major problems here: The mana cost goes up and the strength stolen remains the same. The damage increase is also negligible compared to what Decay can do. You have to bear in mind how careless the person you're laning against can be, especially if you're against a squishy carry looking to get a last hit. And even if there's only 15 units in lane, 15x25=375, making it the strongest lv3 nuke in the game.
I also disagree with your opinion on Bloodstone, while it does benefit greatly from snowballing its extremely cost effective and has a relatively easy buildup that has no recipes. You'll most likely be getting every kill/assist that happens in the game by the time you acquire it, combine this with the lack of a recipe, you get an ability that can eliminate the need for a buyback and be on the defensive even quicker if you have already used your buyback.
In aspect of your skill build, you shouldn't need to max Soul Rip. It slows your leveling of Tombstone and until you're performing 4v4 or 5v5 fights, there generally won't be more then 15 units in a lane. With the reduced cooldown/longer duration/increased damage from the second level of decay you'll do more in a gank to multiple targets, rather then having to wait the ten seconds for another Soul Rip that you most likely won't be getting the full effect from.
good guide. although i recommend that you publish your guide only once its finished. you have to take into account that the first week of the release of your guide is when you get the most views. your chance to get to the hot page. you will never accomplish that if you put a guide up thats not finished yet.
I was working on this quite late last night and I felt it had enough information to be published, but it's complete now. Thanks for the feedback.