Help Support Our Growing Community

DOTAFire is a community that lives to help every Dota 2 player take their game to the next level by having open access to all our tools and resources. Please consider supporting us by whitelisting us in your ad blocker!

Want to support DOTAFire with an ad-free experience? You can support us ad-free for less than $1 a month!

Go Ad-Free
Smitefire logo

Join the leading DOTA 2 community.
Create and share Hero Guides and Builds.

Create an MFN Account






Or

Why does everyone....

Please review our General Rules & Guidelines before posting or commenting anywhere on DOTAFire.

Forum » Theory Crafting » Why does everyone.... 34 posts - page 4 of 4
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Mirror » January 21, 2013 9:45pm | Report
I think an easy way to fix OCD (obsessive carry disorder) if to reward people for things like assists. For example if a hero gets 10 assists the announcer could shout something like "Savior!" If someone gets 20 assists the announcer could shout "Guardian Angel!" Lastly if someone could scrape 30 assists in one game, it has only happened a handful of times for me, The announcer could proudly announce "Divine Intervention!". They could also have a counter on the top of the screen that counts the wards placed. Little things like that make life as a support worth wile.
My lone druid starting items are 12 Iron wood branches, 6 for the hero and 6 for the bear. Even if the bear does not get stats more twigs are OP on any hero.

Mirror


Remarkable (22)
Posts: 495
Steam: TC | Shooting Star
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by nightverge » January 31, 2013 8:05pm | Report
Mirror wrote:

I think an easy way to fix OCD (obsessive carry disorder) if to reward people for things like assists. For example if a hero gets 10 assists the announcer could shout something like "Savior!" If someone gets 20 assists the announcer could shout "Guardian Angel!" Lastly if someone could scrape 30 assists in one game, it has only happened a handful of times for me, The announcer could proudly announce "Divine Intervention!". They could also have a counter on the top of the screen that counts the wards placed. Little things like that make life as a support worth wile.



that is excellent. As an avid wisp and earth shaker player I would love that. Someone else had a reasonable idea that they should just do away with assists and give a kill for every 2 assists you have. Announcer recognition for assists would be amazing though. I think it would also almost completely disolve the carry issue that is so prevelent in the entire genre.

Everyone wants to feel powerful and currently there is no recognition given for an extremely well played support unless the team pays attention to him/her (unlikely).

nightverge



Posts: 3
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by FancyFish » February 10, 2013 5:50pm | Report
I really like your guys comments.

One thing though... on a good day i DO get godlike as an aggressive support. LOL

FancyFish


Notable (1)
Posts: 37
Steam: FancyFish
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kruggles » February 10, 2013 8:36pm | Report
Suitup169 wrote:

1. It's worth pointing out that heroes with the carry role listed are almost evenly matched with all heroes who don't have the carry role listed (47 carries to 49 non-carries). That doesn't count heroes like Pudge and Nightstalker who are regularly played as carries. Even if your whole team randomed, it is statistically likely that you'd wind up with about 2-3 carries. By contrast, even including carries, there are only 28 support heroes (and only 12 primary support heroes) and 21 pushers (with a lot of overlap). It's a short-coming that will hopefully be remedied as Valve continues to release new heroes.

2. There's a generally sensible axiom about pugging in DOTA that I think I read here when I first started playing. "Play for the team; rely on yourself." Unfortunately, especially in the meta of low-level pug matches right now, relying on yourself as a support player is very difficult after the lane phase. You are probably under-geared (since you almost certainly had a carry in lane with you, bought the courier and maybe wards) and under-leveled against the enemy hero who was soloing mid and has come to gank you 3-2. So, you die while your carry partner hopefully escapes. You're even further behind on money and xp, and without actual competent help from your team, it will be very difficult to catch up, even if the team starts leading in total kills. You have to be present and alive to get rewards for those team fights, and you are low-hanging fruit for the enemy carries after a team-fight is initiated. Now you are being yelled at for your horrible K-D, even though you are playing Omni-Knight who is melee, has no real nukes, and because of his ulti is a prime target at the start of a fight. Sound familiar? Everyone who's pugged as a support in a low-ranked match has had this game, at least once, and it's enough to make you want to say, "Hell with these people. Let them buy their own courier and support themselves."

3. It's basic human psychology. All (or at least) most of the things people already said are true. People feel good about solid K-D ratios, they like to hear "Ultra Kill!" when it's them on the giving side of the kill, etc. Also, psychologically speaking, a support hero sounds like half a hero. He needs someone to support to be good, whereas a carry, once farmed, is by definition a complete package. Finally, lower-ranked players haven't got the game experience to plan for a fluid match (I certainly don't, and I feel like I'm doing well for being new). So, you tend to plan for not exactly best case scenario. You reasonably envision a few set-backs, a successful gank, some good early harass, etc. You don't plan for the enemy team to ward your jungle while you're farming on Ursa and to then come gank you while you're at half life engaged with a creep camp. So, the major drawback of a carry (that you have to farm consistently for longer than any non-carry) to reach your amazing potential doesn't really enter into their equations.

4. Carries are often (certainly not always) simpler characters to play. Think over the popular carries you see in low-ranked games (Drow, Sniper, Bloodseeker, Luna, etc.) All of these heroes have 2 passives. You only have to manage two buttons. I can't think of a single support hero with 2 passives; most don't even have 1. This appeals to a newer player who's micro, timing, and targeting are suspect.

5. Lastly, it's the sub-meta of low-ranked games. As far as I can tell watching replays of more skilled games, skilled games aren't really about who won more team fights or had the highest kill count. It's more like hockey. How well did you capitalize on the power-play where one or more opponents are in the penalty box (waiting to respawn). Lower-skilled games, especially pugs, don't have the coordination to do that most of the time. If they win a team fight and knock out 2 of the enemies, they don't form up and push mid and take a tower or barracks. They dither around looking for the other 3. So, the game actually is usually (slowly) decided by who team-fights better, more evenly distributes not only their deaths, but who kills them and gains the upper hand in xp and gold until that advantage is so big that they sweep in and win. I often see games go another twenty minutes after it's perfectly clear to me that the other team has won. It's 53 to 18, why are we all still here? Sometimes they're running up the score, but I feel like it's more often that they don't feel confident, even with a lead that size, that they can go in and get the win.


I think a lot of this is very true. I definately believe points 2. and 3. are true of most people. I think most people believe that they can get up early and get a major advantage and solo things easily. I find that most of these people are what end up holding the team back. As my experience with DOTA goes, I've noticed a trend in 90% of my games:

1. Team gets up a few kills. Overconfidence insues.

2. Other team faces facts that they must get their act together and starts coordinating and travelling in a pack, thus overwealming the other team's carries.

3. Second team gets their primary carry fed enough that victory becomes inevitable, but they spend a large portion of time messing around and building out a ridiculously expensive build than finishing the game.

I can safely say that the few games my team have won have been because we group together and find ways to make things happen. Instances where we have lost are most times due to us thinking "If I farm up to better items, I can hold my own", which never works, for reasons I'm sure most everyone knows.

However, your point 4. I actually don't find to be as true. Though yes, they tend to be more simple to play, they are also the easiest to mess up and become irrelavent. A Drow Ranger isn't so devastating when they are 5 levels behind the other team's carry with half the items, whereas a character like Tidehunter or Venomancer can prove useful in most teamfights even with a lower level just by possessing skills that make up for their underleveled-ness.

There is also one thing about your second point that I'd like to comment on: Carries don't always end up leading a team in pub games. I had a rather unfortunate game where my team was practically filled to the brim with carries, sans me, who was playing Venomancer with my friend. Long story short, the other team's Huskar (he started messing around late, considering he had 4 flipping Yashas in his inventory) got uber fed because all the other carries were either ultra-new or not sure how to handle themselves. I ended up getting a bunch of 'after death' kills with Venomancer's ult, and somehow ended up topping the team, mostly because the carries couldn't take any hits nor dish damage out, whereas I only needed 2 seconds to apply all the damage necessary.

Overall, I find that there are a few important things for netting a win in low level games.

1. Don't needlessly feed. Most newer players don't always understand that being aggressive when an opponent is up a few levels early is bad.

2. Team Play > Soloing Lanes.

3. At least try and balance your team out. You don't have to necessarily play support, but you don't have to go for a hard carry, either. Having a tank or two is usually beneficial in low level games.

4. Communicate with your team as often as possible. Getting your team together is a major feat, but it usually helps turn the tables in your favor.

5. Be the big man, suck it up, and sacrifice a bit for your team. If this means babysitting the carry, buying the courier and wards, and giving up a few kills/lives so your team can keep going, do it. If people are smart, they'll be more receptive to what you have to say and will be more willing to work with you. If not, they probably are either too new to understand, or jerks who you really won't care about anyway.

Anyway, that's the two cents of a rather new player.
Fire: If it isn't solving all your problems, then you simply aren't using it enough.

Kruggles



Posts: 27

Quick Reply

Please log in or sign up to post!

DOTAFire is the place to find the perfect build guide to take your game to the next level. Learn how to play a new hero, or fine tune your favorite DotA hero’s build and strategy.

Copyright © 2019 DOTAFire | All Rights Reserved