http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1617732682 (Try to ignore the fact I did really badly in mid, if you choose to watch the game that is)
And in this game, our
Tusk was very insitent on us fighting pretty frequently. Like he's always be going 'group and push mid' or insiting we chase as 5, or going in when one of us was ganked and killed.And the issue was... after a while, I was pretty confident this was always the worse descision he could be making for us. Like, something like 20 or 30 minutes in, I got ganked by 5 due to an error of mine (I knew they had wards in the jungle, I just throught I could get a couple of creeps and get out), and then rather than having us split push mid and top and force them either back or get a trade, he insists that everyone else group up and go into fight them 4v5.
And he did this later on, saying we should go for a fight in our midlane woods with our WD out, when I was pretty sure we needed his damage (Since he had ag's) to win the fight. And thus I didn't follow into what I was pretty sure was death.
And this kept happening. I kept thinking he was making the worse calls by insiting we fight into the clearly stronger line-up, till the point where the lanes were so pushed in, and our map control was so low we had no choice but to turtle and fight.
And it got me thinking; I know generally everyone should be on the same page. But is the same true for when you are sure that following said decision would end up with us losing the fight anyway, and that you can be getting something from the map instead? Because, I just wasn't willing to commit into constant fights that we wouldn't win?
Like, I think I was in the wrong to not follow his calls, but I think they were still just bad calls. Idk, I think it's why I make a bad core player at my level, or why if I do play core, I should be on the ones who are making the active calls and deciding fights we should take (Iniators Offlaners basically).
It's just something bugging me, and I wanted to talk it through with my most knowledgable DOTA peers.
Like, the more I think back to it, the more I wish I'd been more forceful about saying no fights, or at least no fights till we had say BKB's and could be less worried about being controlled; Because neither myself or PA had good item transition, because we kept going into fights and dying, rather than getting farm and objectives.
Because, sure we had sound team-fight on paper, and a lot of big AOE damage in between mine and Veno's and WD's ulti's; But we didn't have great single target burst, and poor control, which meant we couldn't reliably kill or disable the Necro before he got off a Mek, and a
And it got me thinking; I know generally everyone should be on the same page. But is the same true for when you are sure that following said decision would end up with us losing the fight anyway, and that you can be getting something from the map instead? Because, I just wasn't willing to commit into constant fights that we wouldn't win?
At the end of the day, if you choose to go into a fight you know you cannot win, knowing you will inevitably die...you have just Intentionally Fed.
If you know you cannot win a fight, then back off and find something you can do to make the situation bettter.
If you commit and go 5v5, you have equal chances of winning.
If you don't commit and avoid the fight altogether, you have no chance of winning, and no chance of losing.
But if some of you team commits and you don't, there is no way you will win 4v5.
You may think that, but as you stated, this indeed heavily based upon...
(I'm assuming you're on even footing)
... ^ this.
Just because you fight 5 vs 5 does not mean that you have a chance to win at all. You need to take into account what resources both sides have that affect a Teamfight:-
This also applies to dodging fights ^ sometimes, not fightin can be a disaster if you're letting your opponents get ahead of you because of it.
Finally, you can win Teamfights 4 vs 5, you just need to make the most of your resources
Sometimes a bad call leads to a good result.
But yeah, when somebody is making the calls and fundamentally misreading the situation and making repeated bad calls...that's bad too. I think you've still got to commit unless you've got time/comms to be able to call the whole thing off. Or to call the next fight ahead of time "e.g. we only fight at rax, time to split push, or whatever" so people know you won't be committing to anything else.
It's always hard to discuss these things out with strangers in pubs.
Basically I think this match is a decent chance for me to see if my decision making is okay? Like if I do it tomorrow, I should be able to remember my thought processes at the moment (Since I'm pretty good at that stuff), and when I have some hindsight.
Since I'm less interested in how I performed mechanically in this game, because I know I did poorly in that regard.
1. You could back off, wait for hero x, and possibly lose a tower. However, no one else would die.
2. You could try to force a fight, however, they would probably have the positional advantage and you might win, you might not
-if you did force a fight,by our goals would be to trade to the point where, if they won the fight, they couldn't push. If you force the fight, you need to be gaining something, even if you technically lost.
3. You could take a fight, but some people don't show up, like in your case. I hate to make a general statement here, since I know there are tons of exceptions, but GENERALLY, if your going to look for a fight, no matter how many people are dead, you do it as a team. If someone's going to die, make sure your there to try to get the return kill. Even if you think it's a stupid call, it's better for you and your teammate to die, but get return kills, instead of just your teammates dying on his own.
About the tusk: I literally just played a game as him where I wrecked. I was something like 25-3-17 I think. He's a very bloodthirsty hero, and he is good at picking fights. Also, if he starts snowball, he can't stop it. When he have a tusk on your team, especially if he's a core tusk, you gotta kinda roll with the punches(see what I did there?). You will win fights, you'll lose some, but generally with tusk in a fight you'll get at least a return kill if you have backup.
Teamwork is one of the most valuable things in DotA.
very true... that^ and communication.
If you commit and go 5v5, you have equal chances of winning.
If you don't commit and avoid the fight altogether, you have no chance of winning, and no chance of losing.
But if some of you team commits and you don't, there is no way you will win 4v5.
^ this ... ehhh slightly right.
i dont know where i remember this from but
"DotA is a game of situations, in ever given moment, at any given time, the RIGHT thing to do might change multiple times depending upon who, what , where and when within that situation"
for example you can go in 4v5 if they are a teamfight ultimate dependent lineup and they just blew everything to kill that one guy and you still have all of yours. like ravage down silence down chrono down... oh hey we have black hole and sanity's eclipse ready... hell you can go in 3v5.
or for example a game of mine recently. 2 dead all of us on half hp or less, were running away from a chasing five man scary lineup. communication between team means were constantly telling each other cooldowns. my supernova comes off cooldown, our invoker has a tornado forcepush ready. they bottle neck to go high ground we turn and wipe them with our combo.
on the topic raised by OP...
pubs are very good areas to see bad shotcalling. within usually the first 2-3 teamfights you can see who is good at making them and who isnt. once you do things become easier.
BUT sometimes its better to just play your own game and focus on your hero then trying to fight as a team. AND if no one else is making the calls... step up and make them yourself. also in your case i would have just told him no and then say why. if he goes and does it anyway... point out again why you said not too and eventually the team will realise your making some good calls and listen to you.
game recently i told them all t stop fighting until we had BKB on core heros. they listened and the first fight we took as a team with bkb we teamwiped and took 2 towers. they listened to me after that :P
Think about it this way (I'm assuming you're on even footing):
If you commit and go 5v5, you have equal chances of winning.
If you don't commit and avoid the fight altogether, you have no chance of winning, and no chance of losing.
But if some of you team commits and you don't, there is no way you will win 4v5.