Passive/Active Frost Armor Talent for Intel Heroes

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Forum » General Discussion » Passive/Active Frost Armor Talent for Intel Heroes 8 posts - page 1 of 1
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kyfoid » April 15, 2018 10:45pm | Report
I'm working on a blog that I have at the blizzard and team liquid forums that is trying to prove neglect to game designs that have 3 bodies of classification, particularly to 1 of the 3 bodies.

In their game it is the neglect of the zerg race... in this game it is the neglect of the intelligence class. I am using what I refer to as the most refined or reduced rationalization of the golden ratio, 2.5/4 as a potential proof that what is going on in both games is practically insulting to beauty itself depending on how much it can be proven that the golden ratio by the example given is related to the spectrum of colors.

2.5 + 4 = 6.5, and 6.5 may be the magical number of how many colors there actually are considering the controversy over whether indigo is its own color or not. If not, then 6 is the answer, if so, then 7 is the answer. But what if it is a half truth and 6.5 is the reality?

It is my assertion that one firm reason why the talent tree was put in to this game is because it helps to give some depth to the intelligence, ranged, support heroes. At least give them a reward for leveling up faster then other classes and carries if they can definitely pull that off against their opponents who may even theoretically level or farm faster.

However, what makes my face cringe every time I look at it is when I see the armor talent in the talent tree on a lot of these "ranged intelligence (squishy)" heroes.

To get to the point, the reasoning and politics goes something like this...

-Block is now half as effective on ranged heroes
-The armor in the talent tree should probably actually be block, because block and evasion are the proper defense forms on squishy heroes
-We can't give a full effect of block as a talent because that conflicts with our item block and how it works on ranged heroes
-We can't give a partial block as a talent because it seems like we are screwing over the intelligence class twice now, as other classes would get a block talent that would not be partial
-We can't make the talent evasion because that would put evasion on too many intel heroes
-Evasion is too strong of a talent or too extreme in some cases as it flips a critical hit in to a complete miss at times, and is suppose to be higher up in the talent tree?


So armor is the answer but it is improper... maybe it just works the best at avoiding the problems aforementioned, but now the big question....

Why not and what about FROST ARMOR?

with the 6.5 color spectrum theory, the .5 is pretty much establishing that there would exist a half classification.

And I'm trying to say here that this "half classification" may be the design theory element that is a "sour point" for game designers and so due to that awkwardness they are unable to bring themselves to implement in to the game. But the question... is that sourness the critical point in the defining of what is beautiful?

A talent is a passive, but that doesn't mean that an "active passive" cannot exist... where this armor talent on these ranged intelligence heroes becomes an "active passive frost armor" that DRAINS MANA at a reasonable rate when it is activated, and can be deactivated at any time.

I say, this is the missing golden mean that we have been looking for, for complete design satisfaction and also not having to do anything outside the realm of reason to the game design in order to compensate for this missing design element.

As far as Blizzard's design and zerg goes, it is a sort of conflict in terms of units with roles and teching freedom to complete a philosophy.

But I will be using the example here to start proving that there is a start of a trend of neglect going on for 1 of the 3 bodies in rock/paper/scissor classification game design.


For the record, it is sad if I am right for the sake of the uniqueness and significance of the Hero Lich and the creep camp Ogre Mage, but I'm pretty sure they stand out just as fine considering their value at different stages in the game.

Kyfoid


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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kyfoid » April 15, 2018 11:08pm | Report
One double post here while the thread is still at the top of the list and I'm out...

In the whole "mage > warrior" controversy, I don't believe that the ranged intelligence class has this sort of advantage in dota, especially with block only being half as effective on ranged heroes.

Just because the intelligence class is more of the squishy class doesn't mean there are more heroes with above average movement speed or anything like that...

The only argument that can be made I think is that ranged heroes have the advantage of starting out offensively, with damage items, which is going to make last hitting more convenient. And that might mean something but that's basically a different topic... like... "the difference in starting potentials of different classes"

"the best defense is a good offense" etc

And they definitely could start out better, but they definitely aren't finishing better in to the late game.

Kyfoid


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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by LordVesper » April 22, 2018 6:00am | Report
Most people think supports are underpowered but trust me, they aren't. It's just that most people don't capitalize on their earlygame advantages and decide to go for big items like Aghanim's Scepter. Anyways, my point is that (no offense) we don't need these changes to Dota 2. Adding these perks to supports WILL make them overpowered since a lot of their weaknesses in the lategame get nullified. Support/Intelligence heroes are supposed to suck in the late game since they've impacted so much in the earlygame. They're supposed to die in a blink of an eye because they've bullied the carry in the earlygame so much. Adding passive/active Frost Armor is just going to be an unnecessary headache for lategame carries, forcing games to be longer. Oh, and adding that new mechanic will start the "Age of Supports" again where carries are useless. Long story short, don't fix what isn't broken. Refer to statistics provided by Dotabuff if you need proof that supports are fine just the way they are. If we're to think of things that need fixing, how about the community's toxicity, eh?
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kyfoid » April 22, 2018 3:09pm | Report
An active passive frost armor that COSTS MANA OVER TIME

If not, then maybe an ethereal blade that stays activated if you don't move, and then starts to drain mana at a percentage rate to stay activated.

Kyfoid


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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by LordVesper » April 22, 2018 7:28pm | Report
The mana cost over time won't matter much at all if they can just toggle it off. Toggle it when expecting heavy physical damage and bam you just got the Frost Armor value in just 3 seconds. Ethereal Form while not moving is also insane for heroes like Witch Doctor, Enigma, Death Prophet, and the likes. I can't think of any way to add these mechanics without obliterating the game's balance... Any ideas?
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kyfoid » April 23, 2018 10:27am | Report
I've already talked about other considerations like ranged heroes getting the full effect of block at the cost of mana... but that would seem to make more sense with agility oriented heroes

Maybe I'm thinking about a power shield relative to power tread

But this shield activates a different effect for each class depending on what class you are

Kyfoid


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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by LordVesper » April 24, 2018 4:27am | Report
Seems like a new item idea to me rather than just some talent. What would it be called though? Lmao

Anyways knowing Icefrog, I know he uses talents as a way to balance heroes out rather than just making them entirely different. He nerfed Dragon Knight by removing his +20 attack speed talent at Lvl 10, he nerfed Troll Warlord's lategame by removing his magic resistance etc.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kyfoid » May 23, 2018 4:06pm | Report
Some other ideas for doing the "intelligence" class the right way

Intelligence heroes get a skill point every half bar of experience
-Remove + 1 damage gained for intel points for intel heroes

Or

Knowing that the strength class recieves life pool for which they can combine percentage reduction stats from items

Or the agility class recieves armor for which they can couple with life pool (also percentage reduction)

I would then say that intel needs some kind of block to represent "their style" of defending

But you don't have to look outside the game to understand what that should be

Blade Mail "Intel Themed Item that Reflects"

So intel should provide an intel hero with a static offensive shield with a chance to deal damage back at attackers who attack them....

But every time it procs it costs mana?

This is what really should be in place instead of +1 damage per intel point for intel heroes once again

This almost just goes back to what always used to be said in starcraft

Different races are different

Yes, Zerg is Different....

Different Classes are Different

Yes Intelligence is Different

You can use the same argument that every person would use to try and argue against the reality that 1 of the 3 bodies is different from the other 2

Not all 3 being the same or different at their foundation

It's very much like a golden ratio principle...

One class is half as different from the other....

Ok, and agility is half as different from strength...

but then intelligence is just totally different....

The themes represent complete uniqueness

But at the core it is relative to halves and wholes



In a fantasy world though I'd look at it as the fast get faster and the strong get stronger and slower....

Agility increasing a chance to double strike for agility heroes (taking away the +1 damage)

And strength increasing base damage by what ever, but reducing attack speed (taking the +1 damage for strength heroes and maybe making it 2 but slowly losing attack speed)

Taking away the + 1 damage increase for intelligence hereos will negatively hurt which intelligence heroes?

I only see one.... bane

Then you have the +damage in the talent trees and how that relates with the hero abilities and your only looking at natures prophet yet + damage still doesn't synergy with his abilities.

No, the only real hero that the + 1 damage loss would legitimately effect of intel for intel would be
winter wyvern

Kyfoid


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